What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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theStudent
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What If...?

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Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckel’s many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #461

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theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 435 by help3434]
help3434 wrote: The fact that there are sharply contrasting schools of theology based on the bible and sectarian violence shows that this is not true.
Do you consider it reasonable for a person to say that because all scientists do not agree, and some are stubborn, and cheat, and do underhanded things, then that proves science is false?
That doesn't sound reasonable to me.
Ironically, this device you just used to make this statement came about because of this science you suggest could be false.
Your PC is real and tangible. Perhaps you can provide something similar for your god concept before you start comparing the two?

What is something real and tangible that your god has done, you know, like the scientific method?

Scientists get 'policed' by other scientists. This is what catches cheats or those who might be underhanded. Who 'polices' the pastors and priests? Some preach a trinity, some don't. We know both can't be true, but there they are, both claiming spiritual understanding about contradicting ideas. Let's not bring the scientific method down to such poor levels shall we? Those are reserved for religious opinions.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Post #462

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Clownboat wrote:So you agree that it is mythology
I have no recollection of those words comming from me.
Could you point out the particular post where I said that?
Sure thing.
When I explained: "Of course it is not a science book! The Old Testament was oral tradition passed down by nomadic ancient ignorant man without written language long before it was ever put to pen.

Why not have the message delivered to the Chinese as to avoid many of the years of necessary oral telling? 'Telephone game' anyone?

How can it be considered anything but mythology once this is known?"

See the part in bold?
You responded to that with this: "Still, despite all the talk, and ridicule against the Bible, it is the world's number one best seller, covers the most languages in the world, and has done something else that no other book or organization has been able to do."

It's like you understand how I got to considering it mythology, but choose to ignore that point because of its popularity.
Tell me, if the Qu'ran ever surpasses the Bible in sales, will you convert to Islam? Or do book sales have nothing to do with the truthfulness of a book like I think we all know already?
Clownboat wrote:Also, books do not build things, much less nations.
Figurative speech I find, seems to be understood only when it suits particular arguments.
Oh, I forgot, for many people, only the physical, and material makes sense.
Thankfully not all people think that way.
Build a Better Mind By Engaging the Physical Realities.
Books Build Minds!
Books to build a new society

Yes, the Bible has indeed built a nation/society of people, whose values are shaped by the values found in the Bible, and whose minds are shaped by the greatest man who ever lived - Jesus Christ.
Can the Qu'ran not make this very same claim?
Please tell us why we should care and why you took the time to write these words.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Post #463

Post by Clownboat »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 430 by Clownboat]
Clownboat.
Why do you take everything thing I say, so black and white; so literally and on the surface?
You're posts are confusing.

For example, you claimed that a book built a nation.
I have pointed out that books don't build things and that people could make the same claims about the Qu'ran.

So, if a book is able to build nations like you claim, is that a reason to believe the claims inside of said book? If so, welcome to being a Muslim?

You see, you mention this nation building property of a book, yet it doesn't seem like it really matters when we discuss the same property with the holy book of a competing religion.

This does not go away even if you try to lay the blame on me for being white/black, literal/non-literal.
Do you not agree that your logic here is flawed? If not, please defend it.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Post #464

Post by Clownboat »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 446 by JoeyKnothead]
JoeyKnothead wrote:The facts have been presented to you. That you demand they be "clear" indicates your inability to understand 'em.

Some things are complicated. Your inability to understand such complicated things are indicative of the simplistic thinking of so many theists.
That's the same thing as saying, "Well the reason we understand is because we are intelligent, and you are... to put it politely... less intelligent.
Yet you cannot provide a piece of concrete evidence, that can stand up against a slight tap of a finger.
That's how clear it is.
JoeyKnothead wrote:As we see, you clearly can't fathom that life evolves. That's a step too far for anyone who believes their favorite god (of hundreds proposed) just magically poofed everything into existence.

I propose you'd do well to stop expecting folks to present "clear", and start understanding why you can't see just how clearly the facts point to evolution.
Sounds to me as though you prefer that by some magical occurance, nothingness poofed wormlike common ancestor into existence.
But since that doesn't seem to be working out too well, then it poofed from an extraterrestrial being.
But then that doesn't explain how the universe poofed from a dot.
So a whole lot of poofing seems to be going on.

The Bible says God created living things. It does not say he poofed them into existence.
Over a period f time, everything created existed, from man, to beast, to insect, to worm, and all plant life.
What is unclear about that? Nothing.
JoeyKnothead wrote:Alas, "There's this grand conspiracy of LIARS" is easier for you to understand than the fact or theory of evolution.

That's how you "clear" yourself of the obligation to actually learn about the science behind evolution. That "conspiracy" "clears" you of having to do the actual study / class attending / lab or field work that would allow you to see the clear fact of evolution.

Scientists have done the work. It's up to you to become educated, not for them to make it "clear" to you, who comes into the discussion thinking there's a big magic man up in the sky, a-poofin' him stuff into existence right and left.

"Spoon feed me my education please, lernin's hard" comes to mind.

And then don't it beat all, "You didn't make it clear to me, so you're all a pack of LIARS!" is the expected response when, "Dangitall, I don't understand a bit of it" is too discomforting to those "special" believers whose God would favor their ignorant libels over their quest for knowledge.
Maybe you should reverse the entire scenario you just presented.
It might make sense then.
For the love of all that is holy, please learn that evolution does not touch on how life began!

Let's pretend for a moment, that the Christian god started life off on this planet, starting here perhaps will help you follow along. You with me so far? So the Christian god created some life, and the theory of evolution is the best explanation so far that we have for the diversity of life we see now on this planet, and also in the fossil record.

If you disagree, pretend that evolution has been faulsified and give us your best explanation for the life we see here and now, and also in the fossil record.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Post #465

Post by Clownboat »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 448 by JoeyKnothead]

It seems I don't understand what you are saying.
Could you make it clear so that I will be able to understand?
And provide the facts that I don't understand?

Or is it that I just need to shut up, and listen?
The next time you want to say something like this:
Sounds to me as though you prefer that by some magical occurance, nothingness poofed wormlike common ancestor into existence.

Perhaps it would be best to just shut up.

If you have actual questions though that are not straw men, please ask them.
If you have actual evidence for creationism or your god concept, please present it.
As best that I can tell, we only want you to shut up with your straw men arguments about evolution.

This is not a matter of us calling it a tomat'o' and you calling it a tom'a'to.
More accurately, we are saying 'tomato' and you're yelling 'bowling shoes'.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Post #466

Post by theStudent »

Clownboat wrote:
theStudent wrote:I have to remind myself that the material man does not grasp the sayings of the spiritual man, quite readily.
Please evidence this mechanism that spiritual man has but a material man does not.

I was a born again, tongue talking, street evangelizing Christian for 2 decades. I neither had nor lost anything real.
(Yes, like most Christians, I did think I had some special spiritual knowledge, but I came to understand that I believed it to feel special, not because myself or any other Christian that made that claim actually had special knowledge).

IMO, such claims are made so believers can justify virtually any spiritual claim they make.

Non-believer: "That explanation doesn't make sense though".
Believer: "Well, if only you had special spiritual wisdom, then you would believe like me, but you don't have special spiritual wisdom, so I'm right and you're just a sinner".
Non-believer" Aren't Christians great? It's always someone else's fault for not thinking just like them.
If you were truly born again Clownboat, then you of all people should understand that expression.
Didn't Paul say something to that effect?
Paul wrote:  But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?� But we do have the mind of Christ.
- 1 Corinthians 2:14-16

I don't have to explain it, do I.
Last edited by theStudent on Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #467

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 459 by Clownboat]

Notice.
I never agreed to your statement.

Notice.
You said:
It's like you understand how I got to considering it mythology, but choose to ignore that point because of its popularity.
"It like", is an assumption.
So you assumed I agreed to something I didn't agree to.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #468

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 460 by Clownboat]
Clownboat wrote:Do you not agree that your logic here is flawed? If not, please defend it.
No.
Books can build nations indeed.
Although, I think I did specify that it breaks down racial, and national boundaries.
I should also have mentioned that the nation that it builds, is united in love, not war.

So it is a nation unlike any existing nation.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #469

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 461 by Clownboat]
Clownboat wrote:For the love of all that is holy, please learn that evolution does not touch on how life began!
How many times have I heard that?
I lost count.

Let me see if I can paint a partial and, not so pretty picture of the evolution theory.
Remember Darwin's little quote, about possible intelligence?
There was a reason for that.

Remember his little pond theory?
The one where the common ancestor would emerge from.
There was a reason for that.

Do you really think Darwin would have been satisfied with a theory without foundation? I don't.

I see a complete picture, with Darwin as one of the artists.
You don't have to believe what I do, and I am not trying to persuade you to.
Clownboat wrote:Let's pretend for a moment, that the Christian god started life off on this planet, starting here perhaps will help you follow along. You with me so far? So the Christian god created some life, and the theory of evolution is the best explanation so far that we have for the diversity of life we see now on this planet, and also in the fossil record.

If you disagree, pretend that evolution has been faulsified and give us your best explanation for the life we see here and now, and also in the fossil record.
That's fair.
Just give me a little time to put it together. Thanks.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #470

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 462 by Clownboat]
Clownboat wrote:The next time you want to say something like this:
Sounds to me as though you prefer that by some magical occurance, nothingness poofed wormlike common ancestor into existence.

Perhaps it would be best to just shut up.
LOL. Thanks.
But again, you seem to be assuming.
I do not
prefer that by some magical occurance, nothingness poofed wormlike common ancestor into existence.
I don't know where you got that.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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