What If...?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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theStudent
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What If...?

Post #1

Post by theStudent »

Currently, I am doing what was suggested by some on these forums.
I am researching information both for, and against evolution, and trust me - I am doing so objectively.
While I am still researching, I want to put this out, to hear the different views on it.

During my research I discovered that lately, just over the last decade or so, a lot of informations has been surfacing about fake fossils.
In fact it has now become common place for fossils sold at museums to be checked for genuineness.
I find this interesting.

Why now, is this happening?
Could it be that evidence as it always does, is now surfacing?

For example
Remember the dinosaur hoax - the one that was said to be put together using different bones?
It has recently been found out that it wasn't a hoax after all.
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/02/ ... ecies.html

That is quite interesting.

The fossils aren't the only things that were/are claimed to be fake.
There are the drawings, and pictures as well.
Right now, I am going through a very long document considered a case against some of Darwins picture illustrations.
But have you ever come across this one?

Pictures from the past powerfully shape current views of the world. In books, television programs, and websites, new images appear alongside others that have survived from decades ago. Among the most famous are drawings of embryos by the Darwinist Ernst Haeckel in which humans and other vertebrates begin identical, then diverge toward their adult forms. But these icons of evolution are notorious, too: soon after their publication in 1868, a colleague alleged fraud, and Haeckel’s many enemies have repeated the charge ever since. His embryos nevertheless became a textbook staple until, in 1997, a biologist accused him again, and creationist advocates of intelligent design forced his figures out. How could the most controversial pictures in the history of science have become some of the most widely seen?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haec ... eks4-6.jpg
English: The pictures illustrate Ernst Haeckel's biogenetic law. In the beginning embryos of different species look remarkable similar, later different characteristics develop. The images initiated controversies and charges of fraud.

All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.

My question here, isn't whether he did lie or not, but rather, Does this not place evolutionists in the same position as the Christians they claim are believing in fables?

Consider:
Christians accept the Bible, as the word of God.
Here are just a few facts about the Bible.
With estimated total sales of over 5 billion copies, the Bible is widely considered to be the best-selling book of all time.
It has estimated annual sales of 100 million copies.
It has been a major influence on literature and history, especially in the West where the Gutenberg Bible was the first mass-printed book.
It was the first book ever printed using movable type.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

Archaeological findings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, also called the Qumran Caves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The evidence is there however, that the book we hold in our hand today (the Bible), contains information written centuries ago.

Atheist call the book fables - the reason I have yet to find out.
Maybe one of the reasons is that they have not seen God, or seen him write any book - whatever.
So they claim that Christians' belief in them and what they present is blind faith, and belief in stories.

However, is this not the case with those who accept the theory of evolution, where all they have to go by, is what scientists claim to be evidence?

By the way...
No one, to this day have seen them recreate the theories.
Any data they give you on species, is usually what already existed (at least what I have come across so far).
As regards other claims, all we have are pictures, and claimed fossils, which could have been edited.

So evolutionists are really believing what men claim - without any substantial proof of their claim.
How is this different to believing a book?

And what if Darwin, and others lied?


I'm just interested in you different opinions and thoughts, on the above.
Here is a nice short video of someone's opinion. Reasonable too.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #441

Post by Divine Insight »

theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 432 by Divine Insight]

I believe you know quite well what I am referring to, and what I am not referring to.
And no one has to travel the world to know what's going on.
With all the modern technology, one can sit in their living room and travel the world.
I know precisely what you are referring to. Nowhere in evolution theory does it proclaim or even remotely predict that two mature animals will produce an offspring that it is a completely different species than they are during a single birth event.

So you need to do far more than just sit in your living room thinking that you are obtaining worldly knowledge when you aren't even paying attention to the theories you are claiming to debunk. Your comment only reveals an extreme ignorance of biological evolution. Evolution theory does not even predict that what you argue against should happen. So your rebuttal to evolution theory is absolute nonsense.
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Post #442

Post by H.sapiens »

Divine Insight wrote:
theStudent wrote: [Replying to post 432 by Divine Insight]

I believe you know quite well what I am referring to, and what I am not referring to.
And no one has to travel the world to know what's going on.
With all the modern technology, one can sit in their living room and travel the world.
I know precisely what you are referring to. Nowhere in evolution theory does it proclaim or even remotely predict that two mature animals will produce an offspring that it is a completely different species than they are during a single birth event.

So you need to do far more than just sit in your living room thinking that you are obtaining worldly knowledge when you aren't even paying attention to the theories you are claiming to debunk. Your comment only reveals an extreme ignorance of biological evolution. Evolution theory does not even predict that what you argue against should happen. So your rebuttal to evolution theory is absolute nonsense.
Nothing new, student is just dragging yet another rotting red herring across the trail to try and put everyone off the scent.

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Post #443

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 429 by Clownboat]


First Post
theStudent wrote:
The point should be clear.

If you can't, or don't have the ability to understand everything, why question what you are unable to understand?
Would that not indeed make you god?
Clownboat wrote: Please read what you said in bold and try to understand how little man would have advanced over the years if everyone thought like you. "I don't understand this thing, I better not question it".

You would make a great Muslim because there probably things from that religion that would make you go "hmmm". Don't question them nor try to understand them though!
theStudent wrote: Would you care to explain what I meant by my statement? Or would you like me to explain what I meant? Because it appears that you don't understand what I meant, or said.
Clownboat wrote: No explanation needed.
Your words are there for all to read?

"why question what you are unable to understand?"
Second Post
theStudent wrote:
The special thing about the Bible too is this:
It has never been proven wrong, despite it has countless enemies.

So the evidence, to me is clear.
That's why it is reasonable to go with the Bible, and creation.
Clownboat wrote: Work with me here.
You said: "It (The Bible) has never been proven wrong, despite it has countless enemies."

To which I described a person I know better than anyone on this planet, and how this person was shown that many things in the Bible have in fact been proven wrong.

You made a claim, I showed you one example that makes your claim wrong. I would imagine I am just one of many millions who have had similar experiences.

Do you still claim that the Bible has never been shown to be wrong? Or did you just mean it has never been shown to you personally to be wrong?
Even though you know exactly what I said, you make a statement like this:
You would make a great Muslim because there probably things from that religion that would make you go "hmmm". Don't question them nor try to understand them though!
Without arguing again, that you don't understand, I will make it clear because I am sure, others do not understand.
I have to remind myself that the material man does not grasp the sayings of the spiritual man, quite readily.

The key, is in the phrase "are unable to".
If my knowledge is too limited to comprehend something... to question it, would be pointless.
I would have to be god - with an extremely high level of knowledge - to understanding.

No need to worry about explaining what you clearly didn't understand. I explained myself.
Hopefully it's understood.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #444

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 435 by help3434]
help3434 wrote: The fact that there are sharply contrasting schools of theology based on the bible and sectarian violence shows that this is not true.
Do you consider it reasonable for a person to say that because all scientists do not agree, and some are stubborn, and cheat, and do underhanded things, then that proves science is false?
That doesn't sound reasonable to me.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #445

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 436 by Clownboat]
Clownboat wrote:So you agree that it is mythology
I have no recollection of those words comming from me.
Could you point out the particular post where I said that?
Clownboat wrote:Also, books do not build things, much less nations.
Figurative speech I find, seems to be understood only when it suits particular arguments.
Oh, I forgot, for many people, only the physical, and material makes sense.
Thankfully not all people think that way.
Build a Better Mind By Engaging the Physical Realities.
Books Build Minds!
Books to build a new society

Yes, the Bible has indeed built a nation/society of people, whose values are shaped by the values found in the Bible, and whose minds are shaped by the greatest man who ever lived - Jesus Christ.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Re: What If...?

Post #446

Post by theStudent »

TiG wrote:
All of this lends to a possibility.
Consdering the fact that fossils can be faked, we must accept the fact that Darwin, and other scientists could have lied.
Do you recognize that science itself is what ultimately discredits bogus evidence and flawed theories?

Of course there will be those who are dishonest and those who make mistakes. Weeding out falsehoods is part of the scientific process. But one must also consider the balance of high quality evidence that is on the table.

It is not objective to question (or dismiss) an entire body of science as deep and evidenced as biochemical evolution simply because not every human being involved has been honest and competent.
TiG wrote:Do you recognize that science itself is what ultimately discredits bogus evidence and flawed theories?
No, I don't agree that it
ultimately discredits bogus evidence and flawed theories
However, I do agree that it does reveal bogus evidence and flawed evolution theories.
TiG wrote:But one must also consider the balance of high quality evidence that is on the table.
I agree totally!
I mean that statement nearly caused me to jump out my seat with excitement.
I see evidence of an intelligent creator.
What evidence do you see?
TiG wrote:It is not objective to question (or dismiss) an entire body of science as deep and evidenced as biochemical evolution simply because not every human being involved has been honest and competent.
I agree again.
We tend to agree on a lot of things.
Probably you are another honest guy.

I'm not against science on a whole.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #447

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 438 by Divine Insight]
Divine Insight wrote:I know precisely what you are referring to. Nowhere in evolution theory does it proclaim or even remotely predict that two mature animals will produce an offspring that it is a completely different species than they are during a single birth event.

So you need to do far more than just sit in your living room thinking that you are obtaining worldly knowledge when you aren't even paying attention to the theories you are claiming to debunk. Your comment only reveals an extreme ignorance of biological evolution. Evolution theory does not even predict that what you argue against should happen. So your rebuttal to evolution theory is absolute nonsense.
I am learning.
I am looking as both sides, objectively, as I said.
I can't do anything else, than sit in my living room, and look at the information that is presented.

Thank you.
I knew you had something important to say. Thanks.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #448

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 430 by Clownboat]

Clownboat.
Why do you take everything thing I say, so black and white; so literally and on the surface?
It's obvious, as I stated so often, when I say scientists, I am not referring to all scientists.
Just a couple posts back, I referred to a scientist who was influenced by the scriptures in advancing science.

Please stop taking my words so rigidly, and try to understand, based on my overall statements.

I know there are some persons who believe that the creator used the process of evolution, and as an open-minded individual, let me make this as clear as possible...

If the evidence did point to evolution as a fact - not a scientific fact - but a fact, that can be presented to me as clear as the facts I observe in the Bible, I would have no problem accepting that as truth.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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Post #449

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From Post 445:
theStudent wrote: ...
If the evidence did point to evolution as a fact - not a scientific fact - but a fact, that can be presented to me as clear as the facts I observe in the Bible, I would have no problem accepting that as truth.
The facts have been presented to you. That you demand they be "clear" indicates your inability to understand 'em.

Some things are complicated. Your inability to understand such complicated things are indicative of the simplistic thinking of so many theists.


As we see, you clearly can't fathom that life evolves. That's a step too far for anyone who believes their favorite god (of hundreds proposed) just magically poofed everything into existence.


I propose you'd do well to stop expecting folks to present "clear", and start understanding why you can't see just how clearly the facts point to evolution.


Alas, "There's this grand conspiracy of LIARS" is easier for you to understand than the fact or theory of evolution.

That's how you "clear" yourself of the obligation to actually learn about the science behind evolution. That "conspiracy" "clears" you of having to do the actual study / class attending / lab or field work that would allow you to see the clear fact of evolution.

Scientists have done the work. It's up to you to become educated, not for them to make it "clear" to you, who comes into the discussion thinking there's a big magic man up in the sky, a-poofin' him stuff into existence right and left.

"Spoon feed me my education please, lernin's hard" comes to mind.

And then don't it beat all, "You didn't make it clear to me, so you're all a pack of LIARS!" is the expected response when, "Dangitall, I don't understand a bit of it" is too discomforting to those "special" believers whose God would favor their ignorant libels over their quest for knowledge.
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Post #450

Post by theStudent »

[Replying to post 446 by JoeyKnothead]
JoeyKnothead wrote:The facts have been presented to you. That you demand they be "clear" indicates your inability to understand 'em.

Some things are complicated. Your inability to understand such complicated things are indicative of the simplistic thinking of so many theists.
That's the same thing as saying, "Well the reason we understand is because we are intelligent, and you are... to put it politely... less intelligent.
Yet you cannot provide a piece of concrete evidence, that can stand up against a slight tap of a finger.
That's how clear it is.
JoeyKnothead wrote:As we see, you clearly can't fathom that life evolves. That's a step too far for anyone who believes their favorite god (of hundreds proposed) just magically poofed everything into existence.

I propose you'd do well to stop expecting folks to present "clear", and start understanding why you can't see just how clearly the facts point to evolution.
Sounds to me as though you prefer that by some magical occurance, nothingness poofed wormlike common ancestor into existence.
But since that doesn't seem to be working out too well, then it poofed from an extraterrestrial being.
But then that doesn't explain how the universe poofed from a dot.
So a whole lot of poofing seems to be going on.

The Bible says God created living things. It does not say he poofed them into existence.
Over a period f time, everything created existed, from man, to beast, to insect, to worm, and all plant life.
What is unclear about that? Nothing.
JoeyKnothead wrote:Alas, "There's this grand conspiracy of LIARS" is easier for you to understand than the fact or theory of evolution.

That's how you "clear" yourself of the obligation to actually learn about the science behind evolution. That "conspiracy" "clears" you of having to do the actual study / class attending / lab or field work that would allow you to see the clear fact of evolution.

Scientists have done the work. It's up to you to become educated, not for them to make it "clear" to you, who comes into the discussion thinking there's a big magic man up in the sky, a-poofin' him stuff into existence right and left.

"Spoon feed me my education please, lernin's hard" comes to mind.

And then don't it beat all, "You didn't make it clear to me, so you're all a pack of LIARS!" is the expected response when, "Dangitall, I don't understand a bit of it" is too discomforting to those "special" believers whose God would favor their ignorant libels over their quest for knowledge.
Maybe you should reverse the entire scenario you just presented.
It might make sense then.
John 8:32
. . .the truth will set you free.

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