So, according to macroevolution, which I have done much study on (I made a 10 minute platform speech against it a year ago), there should be intermediate links between fossils of animals believed to be connected. The problem with this theory, is that there are few if any (I'd argue there are none, the commonly used "Lucy" actually has evidence that it is simply the skeleton of an ape which would be able to more easily sit upright, all the other bones besides the hip are the same as a normal ape. (if you wish bring up any "intermediate links" you know about)) intermediate links, when, there should be plenty. There should, in fact, be more intermediate links than the fossils of animals living today (or extinct).
I believe some macroevolutionists, seeing the faults in this, believe that animals evolved through many series of "good mutations" which actually benefitted the animal, but there have never been observed a "positive" mutation, and by that theory as well, there should be many positive mutations which happen. If I got anything a little confused or appear to have forgotten something let me know
Good day and God bless y'all
macroevolution and intermediate links
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Post #31
Regardless of the "bio-babble" that is used to define it, the bottom line is simple; evolutionists believe that reptiles evolved into birds. Point blank, period. That is what I reject. I don't care whether you believe it occurred suddenly or gradually...I am saying it didn't occur at ALL.H.sapiens wrote: There are no moving goal posts here, could it be that your attempts to date have, in fact, been inadequate and that, also, in fact, you really don't know what you are talking about?
Dude, I clearly stated what was meant by "kind". Now, either you didn't see it, or you have a serious lack of reading comprehension skills.H.sapiens wrote: Do you actually have any idea of what you are talking about? You toss the word "kind" off easily and continuously as a bulwark against the advance of evolutionary thinking, yet you can't tell us what it means.
Please go back and read what I said about "kind". It is in there.H.sapiens wrote: See, what is, "the same kind"? If you use your reptile to bird definition: then all mammals are, "the same kind." Are you advocating or accepting that all mammals share a common ancestor in the therapsids of the middle permian and that all mammals today arise from nothing more than microevolution changing, "the therapsid kind"? At the same time, are you arguing that there was no, "synapsid kind," because that would have required macroevolution?
In your whole life, have you ever saw a dog produce a non-dog? Yes or no.H.sapiens wrote: OK, so all dogs are the same species and, "the same kind," but that does not define "the same kind," just its lower limit.
This is the second thing that you are asking me to provide, that I already provided.H.sapiens wrote: OK, do you think you can rationally explain your statement? Which is science and which is not ... and why?
Post #32
Let's see, you said:For_The_Kingdom wrote:Regardless of the "bio-babble" that is used to define it, the bottom line is simple; evolutionists believe that reptiles evolved into birds. Point blank, period. That is what I reject. I don't care whether you believe it occurred suddenly or gradually...I am saying it didn't occur at ALL.H.sapiens wrote: There are no moving goal posts here, could it be that your attempts to date have, in fact, been inadequate and that, also, in fact, you really don't know what you are talking about?
Dude, I clearly stated what was meant by "kind". Now, either you didn't see it, or you have a serious lack of reading comprehension skills.H.sapiens wrote: Do you actually have any idea of what you are talking about? You toss the word "kind" off easily and continuously as a bulwark against the advance of evolutionary thinking, yet you can't tell us what it means.
"Speciation is not macroevolution, it is microevolution. A dog, a wolf, and a coyote are all different species, but they are all obviously the same "kind" of animal. "
and:
"Macroevolution is the term we use to describe the large scale changes between two "kinds" of animals. By "kind", I guess that would mean either the genus or family."
I already demonstrated that both your comments were woefully inadequate. All I want to know is what taxonomic level a "kind" equilibrates to. That should not so hard and without a clear definition everything you've had to say is just so much unintelligible mush.
Answer my question please rather than reference your past faceplants.For_The_Kingdom wrote:Please go back and read what I said about "kind". It is in there.H.sapiens wrote: See, what is, "the same kind"? If you use your reptile to bird definition: then all mammals are, "the same kind." Are you advocating or accepting that all mammals share a common ancestor in the therapsids of the middle Permian and that all mammals today arise from nothing more than microevolution changing, "the therapsid kind"? At the same time, are you arguing that there was no, "synapsid kind," because that would have required macroevolution?
No, have you? That would be a miracle. But that has nothing to do with the conversation, no one ever made such claim, you're just grasping at strawmen.For_The_Kingdom wrote:In your whole life, have you ever saw a dog produce a non-dog? Yes or no.H.sapiens wrote: OK, so all dogs are the same species and, "the same kind," but that does not define "the same kind," just its lower limit.
This is the second thing that you are asking me to provide, that I already provided.[/quote]H.sapiens wrote: OK, do you think you can rationally explain your statement? Which is science and which is not ... and why?
No, I asked for a rational explanation. This is something you failed to clarify: Which is science and which is not ... and why.
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Post #33
[quote="H.sapiens"]]
everything you've had to say is just so much unintelligible mush.....
Answer my question please rather than reference your past faceplants.
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everything you've had to say is just so much unintelligible mush.....
Answer my question please rather than reference your past faceplants.
Moderator Warning
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Please review our Rules.
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My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
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Post #34
I don't see how this illustration is supposed to be helping, it's still going to bring forth the "see, you don't even know what evolution is" or "but that's not what evolution says" because frankly that is not what evolution says.For_The_Kingdom wrote: Instead of giving a definition of it, how about I give an illustration? Because we all know that no matter how a theist (a person that doesn't believe in evolution) defines the term, it is never good enough for the evolutionist.
And that will bring forth the "See, you don't even know what evolution is", or "But that's not what evolution says". That will bring forth a whole barrage of those, wouldn't it?
So instead of playing that game, I will just give you a simple/basic illustration of what evolution is; imagine a reptile....slowly...evolving...into a bird.
Have you considered the alternative that your have the concept wrong? Individual organism does not evolve, populations evolve. A reptile doesn't evolve ever, a species of reptiles evolve. Granted that's somewhat nitpicky. The following however, is not a nitpick but corrects a fundamental misconception.And you can't say that's not what evolution is, because the whole concept is embedded into the theory. It is part of the theory, it is what you believe occurred.
See? You don't even know what macro evolution is. An ancient species of "reptile" to modern birds can be explained without evoking macro evolution. Linear changes one generation to the next is enough.Macroevolution is the term we use to describe the large scale changes between two "kinds" of animals. By "kind", I guess that would mean either the genus or family. The whole reptile-bird thing would be an example of this. This concept is not science. It hasn't been observed, experimented, has not predictory power.
See? You don't even know what micro evolution is. Different varieties of dogs is macro evolution. That is splitting one branch into two, as opposed to the linear changes above.Microevolution is the term we use to describe the small changes between animals of the same kind. As we look at all the different varieties of dogs, we can see microevolution in full effect every single day. This is science. We can observe it, we can experiment with it...and it has predictory power (leonberger breed).
You have been mislead by the "creationists think tank" into believing macro necessarily mean big changes and micro necessarily mean small changes; when the actual distinction is micro means linear path no matter how large a change, and macro means splitting path no matter how small a change.
An analogy: Me and my friend walking from Paris to Istanbul, then to Mumbai and finally to Beijing, that's "micro" movement even we travelled ten thousand miles from our starting point. On the other hand, me walking to the post office while my friend walks in another direction to the grocery store, that's "macro" movement even though the trips only took us 15 minutes, because my friend and I split path and ends up in two separate locations.
Evolutionists too, are sometimes guilty for playing to creationists' terms, rather than hammering this point home at every opportunity.
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Post #35
It is necessarily true because of the impossibility of life naturally originating from nonliving material.Tired of the Nonsense wrote: For this to be a valid point it would necessarily need be consistently true, and not simply true when you need it to be true, and not necessarily true when you need it to be not necessarily true.
Now, explain why it is necessarily true that evolution requires a divine orchestrator and why it is not therefore necessarily true that the divine orchestrator requires a divine orchestrator.
And to ask "why doesn't the divine orchestrator require a divine orchestrator" would be like asking "What was the cause of the uncaused cause".
It is nonsensical.
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Post #36
"What taxonomic level a "kind equilibrates to"..H.sapiens wrote: Let's see, you said:
"Speciation is not macroevolution, it is microevolution. A dog, a wolf, and a coyote are all different species, but they are all obviously the same "kind" of animal. "
and:
"Macroevolution is the term we use to describe the large scale changes between two "kinds" of animals. By "kind", I guess that would mean either the genus or family."
I already demonstrated that both your comments were woefully inadequate. All I want to know is what taxonomic level a "kind" equilibrates to. That should not so hard and without a clear definition everything you've had to say is just so much unintelligible mush.
Answer: "By "kind", I guess that would mean either the genus or family."
I told you it was in there.
I repeat;H.sapiens wrote: Answer my question please rather than reference your past faceplants.
Answer: "By "kind", I guess that would mean either the genus or family."
So it would be a miracle if a "dog produced a non-dog", but it is perfectly natural for a "reptile to evolve into a bird"?H.sapiens wrote: No, have you? That would be a miracle. But that has nothing to do with the conversation, no one ever made such claim, you're just grasping at strawmen.
Makes no sense. Taxi cab fallacy.
I did provide a rational explanation. I said that of the two types of evolution that we can distinguish (macro/micro), it is the micro evolution that is science. Why? Because we observe it, we can experiment with it, and we can make predictions.H.sapiens wrote: No, I asked for a rational explanation. This is something you failed to clarify: Which is science and which is not ... and why.
Observation, experiment, and prediction <---what science is all about, and microevolution passes all three tests.
With macroevolution...that has never been observed, experimented on, and no prediction can be made in regards to it. So it is basically an unscientific notion.
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Post #37
Haven't we been though this? Evolution does not depend on abiogenesis being true, if abiogenesis is false, evolution could still be true (and vice versa, evolution could be false and abiogenesis could still be true.) There is no need to show how life came from nonlife before we can explain how life began to change forms.For_The_Kingdom wrote: It is necessarily true because of the impossibility of life naturally originating from nonliving material.
You are also begging the question, what made you think it impossible for life to originate from non-living material naturally?
Again, that begs the question, what made you think a divine orchestrator is necessarily uncaused?And to ask "why doesn't the divine orchestrator require a divine orchestrator" would be like asking "What was the cause of the uncaused cause".
It is nonsensical.
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Post #38
Would you please provide evidence for the statement of 'the impossibility of life naturally originality from non-living material'? How do you know that?For_The_Kingdom wrote:It is necessarily true because of the impossibility of life naturally originating from nonliving material.Tired of the Nonsense wrote: For this to be a valid point it would necessarily need be consistently true, and not simply true when you need it to be true, and not necessarily true when you need it to be not necessarily true.
Now, explain why it is necessarily true that evolution requires a divine orchestrator and why it is not therefore necessarily true that the divine orchestrator requires a divine orchestrator.
And to ask "why doesn't the divine orchestrator require a divine orchestrator" would be like asking "What was the cause of the uncaused cause".
It is nonsensical.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
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Post #39
Please explain how on the naturalistic worldview, abiogenesis can be false, and evolution be true.Bust Nak wrote: Haven't we been though this? Evolution does not depend on abiogenesis being true, if abiogenesis is false, evolution could still be true (and vice versa, evolution could be false and abiogenesis could still be true.) There is no need to show how life came from nonlife before we can explain how life began to change forms.
Because there is no mechanism in nature that will allow the life "force" to come into existence. That is no different than trying to make all of the furniture in your house "come to life". Where will you get the "life" from to embed it into those material objects? You can't do it.Bust Nak wrote: You are also begging the question, what made you think it impossible for life to originate from non-living material naturally?
It is the same way with organisms. The "life" had to come from something exterior to it. It had to come from the exterior, not the interior.
Because of the arguments against infinite regression. An uncaused cause is necessary.Bust Nak wrote: Again, that begs the question, what made you think a divine orchestrator is necessarily uncaused?
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Post #40
Same answer I gave Bust:Goat wrote: Would you please provide evidence for the statement of 'the impossibility of life naturally originality from non-living material'? How do you know that?
Because there is no mechanism in nature that will allow the life "force" to come into existence. That is no different than trying to make all of the furniture in your house "come to life". Where will you get the "life" from to embed it into those material objects? You can't do it.
It is the same way with organisms. The "life" had to come from something exterior to it. It had to come from the exterior, not the interior.