Many evolutionists argue that the presence of vestigial organs/structures proves that the organisms evolved from some past organisms. Here are explanations for several of these vestigial claims.....
An evo may claim that a human embryo has gills. In fact, the slits in the human embryo is simply a stage in the development of the eustachian tube, which regulates the pressure on your eardrums. If you didn't have one, your ears would basically explode from the pressure.
Next on the list will be the 'pelvic bone' in whales. when evos see the word pelvic, especially in this context, they immediately assume that this implies that the whales once had legs, or evolved from an organism that had legs. Also, different from the mammal pelvic bone, the whale's pelvic bone isn't attached to the spinal cord. It's already been verified that the bone supports the whale's pelvic area, and also serves as an anchorage for the whale's reproductive organs.
What do you guys think?
Vestigial Organs
Moderator: Moderators
-
Vladd44
- Sage
- Posts: 571
- Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:58 am
- Location: Climbing out of your Moms bedroom window.
- Contact:
Post #2
what do i think?
not much.
Waste of time to even counter such obviously flawed logic.
not much.
Waste of time to even counter such obviously flawed logic.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.[GOD] ‑ 1 Cor 13:11
WinMX, BitTorrent and other p2p issues go to http://vladd44.com
WinMX, BitTorrent and other p2p issues go to http://vladd44.com
-
juliod
- Guru
- Posts: 1882
- Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2004 9:04 pm
- Location: Washington DC
- Been thanked: 1 time
Post #3
That you have been reading low-brow creationist web pages.What do you guys think?
While you are on those sites, could you look out for any actual creationist theory or model? I really want to see one.
DanZ
Post #4
There are hundreds of potential vestigial (or appearing to be vestigial) parts of various animals, and I'm fairly sure (in fact, positive) that all of them don't have a use. I don't quite understand why you think disproving 2 of them means that all vestigial organs have a use, but even if it did show that they were all useful, it still wouldn't do anything to disprove evolution.
Post #5
Really? Which ones? Quite obviously you are referencing Haeckel and his pictures of embryos, but you've missed the point entirely.An evo may claim that a human embryo has gills.
The idea is not that they have gills, but that an amazing array of completely different species share the same structure durning their development.
From TO.
Haeckel's pictures are irrelevant to the question of whether the embryos are similar. What matters are the embryos themselves. Within a group, early embryos do show many similarities. For example, all vertebrates develop a notochord, body segments, pharyngeal gill pouches, and a post-anal tail. These fundamental similarities indicate a common evolutionary history. Other embryological similarities are found in other lineages, such as mollusks, arthropods, and annelids. These similarities have been long known. Professor Agassiz in 1849, for example, said, "We find, too, that the young bat, or bird, or the young serpent, in certain periods of their growth, resemble one another so much that he would defy any one to tell one from the other--or distinguish between a bat and a snake." (Scientific American 1849)
What? I've been searching forums on this topic for years, and I have never in my life heard this as an argument for evolution before today. This is a strawman up to and until you provide a reference for this.Next on the list will be the 'pelvic bone' in whales. when evos see the word pelvic, especially in this context, they immediately assume that this implies that the whales once had legs, or evolved from an organism that had legs. Also, different from the mammal pelvic bone, the whale's pelvic bone isn't attached to the spinal cord. It's already been verified that the bone supports the whale's pelvic area, and also serves as an anchorage for the whale's reproductive organs.
I think you pulled this information straight from some anti-evolution website without reading it. Why don't you have a crack at the one we've got in our own bodies?What do you guys think?
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air...we need believing people."
[Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933]
[Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933]
Post #6
What do we think? In general, if a structure isn't used in a plant or animal's new lifestyle, then mutations that alter that structure have little effect on the plant or animal's ability to reproduce. Eventually, such structures may be lost. Between the generations where the structure is fully formed, and the generations when the structure is lost, it will be something we've named "vestigial."
You may, if you like, argue extensively about whether this structure or that structure is really vestigial, or whether it has some use, or whether it is under selection for a different function. What you can't dispute is that mutations happen, and that if they affect a part of an organism that isn't used by that organism, there's a good chance the organism won't care. The process exists--but by itself neither proves nor disproves evolution, nor does any single example. It is merely one of the gazillion lines of evidence that support the theory, and for which it is hard to imagine a motive for an "intelligent" designer.
You may, if you like, argue extensively about whether this structure or that structure is really vestigial, or whether it has some use, or whether it is under selection for a different function. What you can't dispute is that mutations happen, and that if they affect a part of an organism that isn't used by that organism, there's a good chance the organism won't care. The process exists--but by itself neither proves nor disproves evolution, nor does any single example. It is merely one of the gazillion lines of evidence that support the theory, and for which it is hard to imagine a motive for an "intelligent" designer.
Panza llena, corazon contento
-
USIncognito
- Apprentice
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:17 am
Post #7
Not try and steal the thunder of other excellent posts preceeding mine, but it's important to remember that vestigial structures are "those reduced in original function" not "those that are useless leftovers." Further vestigial structures need to be kept seperate from atavistic structures like human tails and legs on whales.
Vestigials and Atavisms remind me of the Peppered Moth issue. Yes, it's true that the moths remain moths, but that's not their point. The point is that alele frequencies can change over time, and that natural selection is a function of environment that can - and does change with with time thus effecting the selective pressures of mutation.
As far as embryology evidencing evolution, Ontology does not completely recapitulate Phylogeny, but there are plenty of lessons to be learned from how embryos develop - especially from (as pointed out by Nyril and T.O.) as structures that would develop into certain other structures in other species, develop into different structures in our own or those being studied.
Forget Haekel's drawings, some of the most interesting findings of evolutionary biology occur during the earliest stages - during the embryo and zygote phase that differentiates say, mammals from insects. And yet we all start from a single fertilized ova...
Vestigials and Atavisms remind me of the Peppered Moth issue. Yes, it's true that the moths remain moths, but that's not their point. The point is that alele frequencies can change over time, and that natural selection is a function of environment that can - and does change with with time thus effecting the selective pressures of mutation.
As far as embryology evidencing evolution, Ontology does not completely recapitulate Phylogeny, but there are plenty of lessons to be learned from how embryos develop - especially from (as pointed out by Nyril and T.O.) as structures that would develop into certain other structures in other species, develop into different structures in our own or those being studied.
Forget Haekel's drawings, some of the most interesting findings of evolutionary biology occur during the earliest stages - during the embryo and zygote phase that differentiates say, mammals from insects. And yet we all start from a single fertilized ova...
Post #8
Actually, it is used as an argument for evolution:nyril wrote:What? I've been searching forums on this topic for years, and I have never in my life heard this as an argument for evolution before today. This is a strawman up to and until you provide a reference for this.axeplayer wrote:Next on the list will be the 'pelvic bone' in whales. when evos see the word pelvic, especially in this context, they immediately assume that this implies that the whales once had legs, or evolved from an organism that had legs. Also, different from the mammal pelvic bone, the whale's pelvic bone isn't attached to the spinal cord. It's already been verified that the bone supports the whale's pelvic area, and also serves as an anchorage for the whale's reproductive organs.
I've even used it as an argument in this thread.4. Vestigial evidence
The vestigial features of whales tell us two things. They tell us that whales, like so many other organisms, have features that make no sense from a design perspective - they have no current function, they require energy to produce and maintain, and they may be deleterious to the organism. They also tell us that whales carry a piece of their evolutionary past with them, highlighting a history of a terrestrial ancestry.
Modern whales often retain rod-like vestiges of pelvic bones, femora, and tibiae, all embedded within the musculature of their body walls. These bones are more pronounced in earlier species and less pronounced in later species. As the example of Basilosaurus shows, whales of intermediate age have intermediate-sized vestigial pelves and rear limb bones.
http://www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/
What I'd like to see is a reference explaining how the vestigial pelvic bone supports the pelvic area and anchors the reproductive organs. I don't see how such relatively small bones can do this. I've never even heard of bones as anchorage sites of organs.
Post #9
Tonsils - which supply phagocytes to the mouth and pharynx to destroy certain harmful bacteria.
Parathyroid glands - which regulate the calcium and phosphate balance in the plasma.
Appendix - which plays a part in the control of intestinal flora and fights disease in the intestinal tract.
Thymus gland - studies show that it confers antibody producing capacity to the lymphoid tissue during the early portion of life.
Coccyx bone - which serves as an attachment to the sphincter anal externus muscle which is used in eliminating waste from the large intestine.
......if you look, you find reason.
Parathyroid glands - which regulate the calcium and phosphate balance in the plasma.
Appendix - which plays a part in the control of intestinal flora and fights disease in the intestinal tract.
Thymus gland - studies show that it confers antibody producing capacity to the lymphoid tissue during the early portion of life.
Coccyx bone - which serves as an attachment to the sphincter anal externus muscle which is used in eliminating waste from the large intestine.
......if you look, you find reason.
Post #10
Wow. Looks like I eat my cigar today, I'd never of known unless you had pointed it out. Thanks for that information.Actually, it is used as an argument for evolution:
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air...we need believing people."
[Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933]
[Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933]
