Mycenae and Minoa

[juliod]

OK, so moving on to the next problem in understanding a creationist theory or chronology, here is the next question.

Did the Mycenean and Minoan civilizations exist before or after the great flood?

Since these civilizations were buried it seems that they were before the flood, and were submerged along with all the animals that were fossilized.

But there is a problem with this. Although we know almost nothing about these civilizations, the script known as Linear B, used in administrative records, was deciphered (by one of the greatest feats of intellectual effort) and shown to be a form of proto-greek. So these tablets (and hence the civilization) must have existed after the Tower of Babel incident.

On the other hand, if these nations existed after the flood (anbd Babel, whenever that was), then that brings them to within the scientifically-dated age (c. 2000 BC). That would imply that scientific dating techniques are accurate, and therefore the biblical chronology is wrong.

What a conundrum!

[MagusYanam]

Another problem with the Minoan civilisation is that their descendants seem to have survived the flood (if indeed they did predate it) and went on to become the Philistines, the Cretans and maybe the Thracians, which would mean (barring the proposition that Noah himself was Pelasgian) it wasn't just Noah and family who survived. And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Mykenai the birthplace of classical Greek civilisation? Good questions, juliod, by the way.

[YEC]

What was the ratio of 12C to 14C at the time of the flood?

What effect would that have on dating?

[Gollum]

What was the ratio of 12C to 14C at the time of the flood?

What effect would that have on dating?

Bit difficult to say since we don't have a date for the flood nor any evidence that it happened.

You may check out this reference. Specifically, this quotation

All of the dating schemes work from knowing the present abundances of the parent and daughter isotopes. The original abundance N0, of the parent is simply N0 = N e^kt, where N is the present abundance, t is time, and k is a constant related to the half life.

In short, given current C12/C14 ratios it is possible to compute the ratios at any given past time.

[YEC]

In short, given current C12/C14 ratios it is possible to compute the ratios at any given past time.

Wrong....When you understand how C14 is made and the elements that would have slowed the production you'll understand that your statement was incorrect.

[youngborean]

Linear B is generally dated to 1600-1400 BC. No problem at all. Proto-greek and the relationship to other people of the sea all seem to fit. Nice try though.

http://www.goddess-athena.org/Timeline/Minoan/index.htm

Interesting enough this dating relies much more on its contemporary artifacts in other regions such as assyria and egypt due to their trade with the region. This would hardly be evidence to establish Scientific dating methods unless you are suggesting it is simply a calibration mechanism for the last 4000 years. Which already seems to be fairly well established with dendrochronolgy.

[Gollum]

When you understand how C14 is made and the elements that would have slowed the production you'll understand that your statement was incorrect

Really? You of course didn't bother to look at the link I gave you (obviously) so let me help you out.

The link again was Radiometric Dating - A Christian Perspective and it is courtesy of

Dr. Roger C. Weins
Dr. Wiens has a PhD in Physics, with a minor in Geology. His PhD thesis was on isotope ratios in meteorites, including surface exposure dating. [...] He is presently employed in the Space & Atmospheric Sciences Group at the Los Alamos National Laboratory.

I personally claim no special expertise in Radiometric dating techniques but Dr. Weins does and the quote that you so cavalierly rejected was his; not mine. Since you have elected to dispute it without references, can we see your credentials as a radiometric dating expert?

[juliod]

What was the ratio of 12C to 14C at the time of the flood?

Who mentioned carbon dating?

I was asking if these civilizations existed before or after the flood. Don't you have an answer, YEC?

DanZ

[juliod]

Linear B is generally dated to 1600-1400 BC. No problem at all. Proto-greek and the relationship to other people of the sea all seem to fit. Nice try though.

So are you agreeing that remains and fossils buried in the ground were not buried by the Flood?

And that Minoa and Mycenae are dated accurately by normal scientific methods?

So how does creationist dating work? Everything dated to before 4004 BC is automatically wrong, while anything dated to after that date is OK? I can name that tune in two words: Special. Pleading.

DanZ

[youngborean]

So are you agreeing that remains and fossils buried in the ground were not buried by the Flood?

And that Minoa and Mycenae are dated accurately by normal scientific methods?

Minoa and Mycenae are after the flood by my account. I don't know what you mean by normal Scientific methods. The dates of these civilizations would have would have been established very little by C14. But even if that method is used, as I posted before, when dendrochronolgy becomes more suspect by necessitating extrapolation, I also become more suspect.

So how does creationist dating work? Everything dated to before 4004 BC is automatically wrong, while anything dated to after that date is OK?

Not for me. I look at the amazing evidence we look at today. I like to think critically about everything. I believe that the Science relies too heavily on mathematical extrapolation. We have very little concise calbration methods for these dating experiments. I appreciate what they are trying to accomplish and note their findings. I personally don't think it amounts to proof.