Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

[John Human]

When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.

On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.

Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?

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[brunumb]

[Replying to brunumb in post #458]

How do you know anything?

You seem reluctant or maybe unable to share with us your knowledge of the inner workings of demons. Never mind. That which is asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. There are no demons.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to brunumb in post #461]

That isn't how logic works, but alright.

I have no reason to believe in vampires, but I cannot logically claim they do not exist.

[Diagoras]

[Replying to brunumb in post #461]

That isn't how logic works, but alright.

I have no reason to believe in vampires, but I cannot logically claim they do not exist.

<bolding mine>

Is that the same as “I believe that vampires do not exist, but cannot prove it.” ?

Seems to me that science can easily disprove enough of the common vampire ‘traits’ (e.g. being ‘undead’, transforming into a bat, no reflection, etc) to help get you to the obvious ‘logical’ conclusion.

Does it matter to you that demons are mentioned in the Bible, while vampires are not? I don’t think it would be logical to believe one existed but not the other based solely on one source (when that source is demonstrably unreliable on a number of its claims).

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to brunumb in post #461]

That isn't how logic works, but alright.

I have no reason to believe in vampires, but I cannot logically claim they do not exist.

<bolding mine>

Is that the same as “I believe that vampires do not exist, but cannot prove it.” ?

Seems to me that science can easily disprove enough of the common vampire ‘traits’ (e.g. being ‘undead’, transforming into a bat, no reflection, etc) to help get you to the obvious ‘logical’ conclusion.

Does it matter to you that demons are mentioned in the Bible, while vampires are not? I don’t think it would be logical to believe one existed but not the other based solely on one source (when that source is demonstrably unreliable on a number of its claims).

I do not believe in demons because the bible mentions them. I believe based on personal experience. If I only had the bible to go on, I would probably lack all faith in demons. I would try to have faith in them, though, because Jesus cast them out.

[Clownboat]

I do not believe in demons because the bible mentions them. I would try to have faith in them, though, because Jesus cast them out.

You may have to read that a time or two...
Your own words betray you.

You don't believe in demons because of the Bible, you believe in them because the Bible says that Jesus cast them out.
I was set free from my religious beliefs, there is hope for all!

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #465]

AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:08 am
I do not believe in demons because the bible mentions them. I would try to have faith in them, though, because Jesus cast them out.

You may have to read that a time or two...
Your own words betray you.

You don't believe in demons because of the Bible, you believe in them because the Bible says that Jesus cast them out.
I was set free from my religious beliefs, there is hope for all!

No, if ALL I had was the bible to go by then I would find it difficult to believe in demons, but I would TRY to have faith in them because I believe Jesus cast them out of people.

I personally am convinced demons exist based on many personal experienced that I think many people probably have prayed to have. I know one atheist on Paltalk that tries to have the kinds of experiences I have had.

[Diagoras]

I personally am convinced demons exist based on many personal experienced that I think many people probably have prayed to have.

Whereas I am reasonably convinced that they don’t exist based on known science and a consistent lack of evidence from people claiming to be in contact with demons.

I know one atheist on Paltalk that tries to have the kinds of experiences I have had.

If we had any details about the experiences, this still wouldn’t be very convincing. I hope you can understand why.

I know there’s quite a few pages to read through in this thread, but go back and examine my exchanges with the OP’s author. How many of my reasonable and rational questions were answered satisfactorily, and how many were ignored? What might a reasonable, thinking person infer from this?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Diagoras in post #467]

Whereas I am reasonably convinced that they don’t exist based on known science

How would science play any role in judging if metaphysical things like demons exist or not? Could you explain how the scientific method can know anything about if the metaphysical is real or unreal?

I know there’s quite a few pages to read through in this thread, but go back and examine my exchanges with the OP’s author. How many of my reasonable and rational questions were answered satisfactorily, and how many were ignored? What might a reasonable, thinking person infer from this?

I would agree that without personal experiences with demons it wouldn't make much sense to believe in them. However, it would not be a scientific position. It would be like me disbelieving in vampires because I don't see reasons to believe in them.

And by experiences, I mean experiences that make more sense under the belief in demons.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to Diagoras in post #467]

Whereas I am reasonably convinced that they don’t exist based on known science

How would science play any role in judging if metaphysical things like demons exist or not? Could you explain how the scientific method can know anything about if the metaphysical is real or unreal?

I know there’s quite a few pages to read through in this thread, but go back and examine my exchanges with the OP’s author. How many of my reasonable and rational questions were answered satisfactorily, and how many were ignored? What might a reasonable, thinking person infer from this?

I would agree that without personal experiences with demons it wouldn't make much sense to believe in them. However, it would not be a scientific position. It would be like me disbelieving in vampires because I don't see reasons to believe in them.

And by experiences, I mean experiences that make more sense under the belief in demons.

If demons were real and interacted in any way with our world, we would be able to detect the interactions or the affects of them even if the demons themselves were undetectable. It is how we have learned about dark matter and black holes and such after all. These things affect our world, and such effects are detectable.

Demons (like the gods I presume) are just a human excuse, much like how they once were the cause of many mental illnesses (thunder and lightning for the gods).

Assigning agency to things is a trait that humans evolved to have after all. So it really not much of a suprise when we do it if you ask me.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #469]

Let's see if that holds true. Suppose demons can influence the brain of humans. Let's say they can sometimes cause hallucinations and control what we see via those hallucinations. What would the scientist find? At best, if he happened to have the person in an MRI or hooked up to an EEG, he would see evidence that the person saw something that is not visible to others or heard something that is not visible to others.

How would the scientists using the scientific method determine if a demon were the cause of the person hearing something that no one else is hearing or if somehow the brain just goes super wonky sometimes and people hear things?

And suppose the doctor prescribes the person medication and the voices aren't so bad or they even go away. It could be that case that the medicine alters the brain in such a way that the demon can no longer manipulate it in the same way. Afterall, demons are not gods.