Belief in existence of God scientific. Denial - unscientific

[theStudent]

The length of the thread, in the link below, is largely due to repeated questions.on the contained information. The following is open for debate.
Belief in the existence of God is scientific. Denial - unscientific.

For those who disagree with the above, please state why, and/or provide evidence for the following:

• God does not exist.
• God exists only in the mind of the believer.
• Miracles do not happen.
• The Bible is a book of myths.

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 358 by Bust Nak]

I still do not see any scripture.
I could only guess at why.
Here's my final response.

Are you now expecting a physical Bible to show up in the post?

Rather than address the point, you hide behind bad vision. Most apologists would at least try and 'interpret' it differently, but it's so clear I guess you can't even sort out how to do that.

You ask for scientific evidence and then either don't understand it or claim it's not the actual physical evidence. You ask for scriptural evidence and then claim you can't see it. Not sure why you bother asking, you clearly don't want to look at anything presented even when you directly ask for it.

By the way, here's 7, 8, & 9:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

Job 11:9New International Version (NIV)

9
Their measure is longer than the earth
and wider than the sea.

Length and width don't apply to spheres.


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

Deuteronomy 28:64New International Version (NIV)

64 Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other.

Two ends implies a flat object.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

Jeremiah 25:33New International Version (NIV)

33 At that time those slain by the Lord will be everywhere—from one end of the earth to the other.

Same as above, flat object with two ends.

The evidence is mounting for a flat earth, all scripture based. Why do you deny it?

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 361 by benchwarmer]

You see what I mean.
I can clearly see the scriptures in you post.
So why can't I see any in Bust Nak's? Do you see any?

If you can, I will be glad if you point it/them out, because it will help me to realize that something must be wrong with my eyes.

Okay, so...

Their measure is longer than the earth
and wider than the sea.

64 Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other.

33 At that time those slain by the Lord will be everywhere—from one end of the earth to the other.

So these are scriptures that cause you to conclude that the Bible teaches a flat earth.
I acknowledged your scriptures. Did you acknowledge the link in my post above, and the scriptures within?
If you did, I thank you. If you didn't, feel free to.

There is another post in which I mentioned the unreasonable position some take in pulling one or two scriptures from the Bible, and applying them based on their own understanding, instead of using the entire Bible, in it's context, in order to get the understanding of its author Jehovah God.

That sounds a lot like what I am being accused - reading all the science documents, and still not understanding what they are saying, but misapplying them.

Am I making any sense at all?

[benchwarmer]

[Replying to post 361 by benchwarmer]

You see what I mean.
I can clearly see the scriptures in you post.
So why can't I see any in Bust Nak's? Do you see any?

Ok, now I see what you are getting at. Bust Nak didn't give the direct quote in the first response and put the wrong passage reference in the second one. Fine. You win that small point. I'm hoping you can see this one:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

Job 38:14New International Version (NIV)

14
The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.

It took me 5 seconds with biblegateway.com to find it. Are you telling me you couldn't do the same and/or weren't curious where the passage actually came from? You could have saved everyone a bunch of time if you simply pointed out the wrong scripture reference which was likely an innocent cut and paste mistake.

So these are scriptures that cause you to conclude that the Bible teaches a flat earth.
I acknowledged your scriptures. Did you acknowledge the link in my post above, and the scriptures within?
If you did, I thank you. If you didn't, feel free to.

I read your link, you spend a lot of time trying to seemingly get a circle to mean sphere. Which it doesn't. Circles are two dimensional. The nine references I've given so far seem to support that the people who wrote the scripture in the first place believed the earth to be flat.

Again, I grant that no passage comes right out and says the earth is flat or is spherical. However, a number of passages imply flat objects when referring to the earth. Surely you can see that even if you don't agree with it.

There is another post in which I mentioned the unreasonable position some take in pulling one or two scriptures from the Bible, and applying them based on their own understanding, instead of using the entire Bible, in it's context, in order to get the understanding of its author Jehovah God.

I've given 9 scripture references so far all from different spots that imply the authors didn't realize the earth is spherical. I'm not sure what context can be had from 'the entire Bible' that changes things.

That sounds a lot like what I am being accused - reading all the science documents, and still not understanding what they are saying, but misapplying them.

Am I making any sense at all?

There is a difference between the 'science documents' and the Bible. In science the definitions are very precise. In fact many times it's very hard to read scientific articles if you are not familiar with all the jargon. This is not done to confuse the public, but to add precision in what's being talked about. Conversely, the Bible seems open to all manner of interpretation depending on who reads it. Some will claim their interpretation is correct and others are wrong. Others will claim likewise. Around and around it goes. Scientific articles don't have this issue. If you don't understand a word, look it up or contact the author. There will be a precise definition for what is meant and it's not open to interpretation. If you don't agree with the article, you can test the hypothesis, attempt to recreate the data, and/or provide a better explanation that covers ALL the valid data.

[McCulloch]

The length of the thread, in the link below, is largely due to repeated questions.on the contained information. The following is open for debate.
Belief in the existence of God is scientific. Denial - unscientific.

For those who disagree with the above, please state why, and/or provide evidence for the following:

• God does not exist.
• God exists only in the mind of the believer.
• Miracles do not happen.
• The Bible is a book of myths.

I challenge your understanding of what science is. Science provides no reason to believe in the existence of God, so disbelief is not unscientific.

Now, before we can meaningfully discuss the existence of God, we must first agree on definitions. What is it that you mean when you use the word "God"? Before anyone tries to punt this question back, let me remind you that the person making a positive claim has the burden of making that claim meaningful. I do not believe that the word "God" has a coherent definition.
While you are at it, let us know what you mean by exist. It seems obvious that you don't mean that God exists in the same sense that a tree exists or a city.

[arian]

I hear that same response from my teen-children about me, but of course on a much smaller scale. I just say to myself; "oh, they'll understand one day".

If what you are doing is idiotic, they may never understand though.

That's true, like yourself, in your Usergroup you have "I truly Believed", .. and now you call that belief idiotic.

Many of the decisions people claim your god did fall into this idiotic category.
- Eve ate the wrong fruit. I'm going to punish future women by having them suffer during childbirth. Idiotic, because it accomplished nothing.

Ate the wrong fruit, you're funny. Hey, you have a choice, take either the red pill or the blue pill?

- Mankind is sinners, all save 8. I'm going to kill off all life on the planet, save 8. Idiotic, because man still rebelled again. It accomplished nothing.

I hear you my friend, but what is a loving Father to do but try, right? "Maybe these 8 will learn? And to make sure I don't go to such extremes again, I'll put a rainbow in the sky as a reminder."

But what did the LGBT-lmnop group do? They even took that and made a flag out of it to further taunt God. But look how God holds His anger back, especially when the Jews on His Holy-Land opened their gates to such abomination:

Tel Aviv trumps New York to be named world's best gay city
- Israeli metropolis beats New York and Toronto in poll naming best urban destinations for gay travelers

My point is that there seems to be a disconnect between what God wants us to do and what God is allowed to do.

Yeah, I know what you mean. God acts as if He Created everything, and that as if we didn't know anything, right? But we'll show Him, we got the BB-Evolution stories down to just about where we can believe it, and feel proud of it!
Nyeeah, .. who needs God, and with the New "One World, .. Coexist" theology, we can redefine moral laws too, where it includes EVERYONE, right!?

Arian, you totally failed to address is point that there is a disconnect between what a god wants us to do and what a god is allowed to do.
It would be great if you could debate without crying about the Big Bang or new world orders. If you have no actual rebuttal, then consider why instead of whining about other things.

No, as usual it went right over your head. I was pointing out the image, taking the question to; "there seems to be a disconnect between what man wants us to do and what man is allowed to do!" But if you believe, and this without any evidence either, .. that you are an evolving amoeba, then none of this will make any sense to you. Sorry, but you will have to leave religion and learn a little more about science, observe before you just jump in to; "I Truly Believed!" if you know what I mean??

God is certainly not leading by example, but simply asking us to follow some rules regardless of what He is up to.

Again, I know what you mean, like you said, God commands us not to kill, yet the Old Testament is full of killing, especially by this King David fellow. I mean oh-my Lord, I just brushed up on my OT reading a bit and I tell you it was almost as bad as my teen-sons gaming where they shoot-em, slice-em and dice-em just about anyone, including their friends sometimes (I hate those games, and makes me almost sick to my stomach knowing he plays them.)

But look, let's just go by the Bible, then follow it into our present history and ask ourselves: "Who started the killing/murder, .. or try to live outside of Gods rules!?" Did God ask Cain to kill his brother Abel? That's when the law murder was invented.

God created man in His image, He gave man a clear command, "don't try to live your life based on your own merit, cause you don't know everything yet, but I do." But just like a typical teenager, there goes Adam testing the waters, .. right!? All he needed was a little suggestion (like teens trying drugs for the first time: "Try it, it will make you feel like a god dude! Really, you'll be able to fly man!"

Again, you totally failed to address is point that your god concept does not lead by example. Please stop with the distractions and complaining and debate, or admit that you cannot.

God is not one of your ape ancestors Clownboat no matter how hard you try to make Him out to be. Or is He that little baby in the arms of the "mother of all gods Mary", ok!
Your whole vision of our Creator is off, you fail to understand the definition of "creator".

At the very least, how about just wipe out those who were committing the sinful acts? God created the universe with a word and can't selectively take out those causing the problems?

But don't you see, even if He did that (which He came very close to doing in the past) we still have free will. There is still that "Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil" the ability to decide "should I, .. or shouldn't I?". Like others here suggested in our debates in the past that; God should never have put that tree of good and evil there, .. and we debated that to death already, remember?

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is the symbol of our free will, take that out and we would no longer be "created in Gods image", but would be EXACTLY as the BB-Evolution religion says we are: "dumb, mindless animals acting by the influence of our environment on the chemicals in our bodies." If I'm hungry, just go take and eat, .. if I'm in need of anything, heck just take it. if I'm horny, hey she looks hot, take and f_, .. I mean; take and make love to her.

Actually, as you can see we are coming to that; "Do as thou wilt who-needs-God-ideology", it is fast becoming our present reality. So let's see how that works for "All"? It does seem to work for the men in Islam, and the Catholic church is now opening their gates even wider, and the rest of the denominations are following close behind.
Heck, soon all they will have is the door posts where the door used to be, no fences or walls.

All these words and you yet again failed to address his question.
"how about just wipe out those who were committing the sinful acts?"

.. because there were a BILLION people ready to take their place, that's why.

If you don't believe in the stories in the Bible, what's your point?

I'm simply showing the internal inconsistency in the Bible.

To paraphrase:

1) God says don't kill.

2) God gets angry and kills.

I know right? My dad used to tell me; "don't fight, don't hurt or hit your brother!", and proceeded to get the whip and beat me with it!?!?

Great story, but why are you unable to address what he asks you?
He is pointing out inconsistencies in your god concept, and you think it is appropriate to tell us some story about your dad? Are you just trolling us?

Heavenly Father - earthly father, .. get it?

No right?

So tell me again, what exactly did you "Truly Believe" Clownboat? I know you love ancient stories of millions and billions of years ago, but you are no longer living in the Town of Bedrock Fred. Don't you think it's time to grow up and start eating some meat? Like Real-Food. 1 Corinthians 13:11

Take care Clownboat!

[Bust Nak]

I still do not see any scripture.

Well, I quoted Job 38:14. Go on, tell the world that Job is not scripture.

Here's my final response.

Non of that addresses my point, that article merely state your own views. Not good enough in a debate environment.

[Clownboat]

So tell me again, what exactly did you "Truly Believe" Clownboat? I know you love ancient stories of millions and billions of years ago, but you are no longer living in the Town of Bedrock Fred. Don't you think it's time to grow up and start eating some meat? Like Real-Food. 1 Corinthians 13:11

Take care Clownboat!

My entire post that you replied to was addressing the fact that you failed to address the questions that were posed to you by another. I asked for you to address them and not complain about evolution and the big bang.

At this point I am just here to point it out to the readers and to also point out that you think man is an evolving amoeba, that Israel is a great place for the gays to visit and that I don't live in the town of Bedrock. But hey! At least you didn't mention evolution or the big bang!

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 364 by McCulloch]

I challenge your understanding of what science is. Science provides no reason to believe in the existence of God, so disbelief is not unscientific.

Thank You.
I did acknowledge that the title is wrong.
I had something in mind but it was a bit too long, so in trying to shorten it, I messed up.
The title should reall have been, "There is Scientific Evidence for Believing in the Existence of God. Denying that Evidence is Unscientific".
That's more what I wanted.
How is that?

As regard my understanding of what science is, I defined science in the link found in the post. Is that correct?

Now, before we can meaningfully discuss the existence of God, we must first agree on definitions. What is it that you mean when you use the word "God"?

Good point.
There are indeed many understandings and representations of God, and it is a broad term.
I was using God in relation to the God I believe in. The one described in the Bible as the living God, the creator of all things, the God of the Bible - Jehovah.

Before anyone tries to punt this question back, let me remind you that the person making a positive claim has the burden of making that claim meaningful. I do not believe that the word "God" has a coherent definition.

It does. Specifically, it means "mighty one".
That's why often the Bible, would use titles, such as the Almighty, sovereign of the universe, etc., to identify the most high. Or it uses his name, which is represented by what is called the tetragrammaton ( Hebrew - יהוה - read from right to left, and can be represented in many modern languages as YHWH or JHVH), and commonly rendered Jehovah, in English, found about 7,000 times in the Bible

While you are at it, let us know what you mean by exist. It seems obvious that you don't mean that God exists in the same sense that a tree exists or a city.

Of course, I mean God exists in the same sense as dark matter exists, magnetism exists, gravity exist, consciousness exists...
These may be of a different form, what I think is referred to as spirit, but because we can't see something with our physical eyes, does not mean those things don't exist.
Thanks for asking.

[RonE]

[Replying to post 368 by theStudent]

[Replying to post 364 by McCulloch]

While you are at it, let us know what you mean by exist. It seems obvious that you don't mean that God exists in the same sense that a tree exists or a city.

Of course, I mean God exists in the same sense as dark matter exists, magnetism exists, gravity exist, consciousness exists...

You say god exists in the same sense as these four items you listed. Let's take those one at at time.

Dark matter. "All these lines of evidence suggest that galaxies, clusters of galaxies, and the universe as a whole contain far more matter than that which is observable via electromagnetic signals. ... Many experiments to detect proposed dark matter particles through non-gravitational means are under way." Wikipedia
Since we cannot really detect dark matter yet, we only suspect it's existence due to the gravitational issue mentioned above. What if one day we do prove it's existence? What will that say about your god?

Magnetism. We can setup countless scientific experiments to confirm magnetism exists. Why can you not get a single scientific experimental confirmation that your god exists if your god is like magnetism?

Gravity. We can setup countless scientific experiments to confirm gravity exists. Why can you not get a single scientific experimental confirmation that your god exists if your god is like gravity?

Consciousness. Can you set up a scientific experiment to confirm consciousness? Not that I know of, because that goes into personal experiences which cannot be measured. What does that say about your god? Maybe god is just something your consciousness thought up, that might make him real to you but it doesn't mean he exists.

Okay, 2 out of 4 of the items you listed can be proven via scientific experiments. So how are they like your god? Have you proven god exists by scientific experiment? NO.

These may be of a different form, what I think is referred to as spirit, but because we can't see something with our physical eyes, does not mean those things don't exist.

How is spirit different than consciousness? Can you prove by scientific experiment that either exist? NO.

[font=Georgia]And that my friend is why belief in god is NOT scientific. It is only unsubstantiated belief.[/font]

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 369 by RonE]

Since we cannot really detect dark matter yet, we only suspect it's existence due to the gravitational issue mentioned above. What if one day we do prove it's existence? What will that say about your god?

I have not said that God is Dark Matter, nor have I said that he is like Dark Matter.
I simpky said that he exists in the same way these invisible "forces" exists.
The same way these "forces" cause detectable effects, he does as well.

How is spirit different than consciousness? Can you prove by scientific experiment that either exist? NO.

You can yes.
Of course we have.
They know.
If however, you restrict your scientific experiment, then you have denied the evidence. It does not however, prevent the empirical evidence for God's existence.