Why do you believe in Creationism or Evolution?
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Why do you believe in Creationism or Evolution?
Post #1so why do u believe in evolution or creationism???
Post #221
Sorry to disturb all you YEC's but Evolution is NOT a belief system, it is science at its best. You have had c. 150 years to disprove Evolution and come up with a system to account for all the animals etc. What do we get? Super-duper hypermicroevolution, hydroplate theory and of course if we can't explain it then there is "Oh, God must have done it" and the famous "It's in the Bible so it must be true!" 
Evolution is a science, nothing more nothing less. It has YEC's and other politicos running for cover precisely because all attacks have failed. Look at the evidence and not your beliefs!
Evolution is a science, nothing more nothing less. It has YEC's and other politicos running for cover precisely because all attacks have failed. Look at the evidence and not your beliefs!
Post #222
Thanks, Chem. I agree that evolution is science at its best, and by no means a belief system. However, I reach a different conclusion at the end than you do. The YECs and politicos are not running for cover. They are attacking in full force. The No Child Left Behind law is a transparent effort to move funding from public schools to private schools, and thereby undermine the mostly-Democratic teachers' unions as well as provide taxpayers' dollars to support anti-evolution teaching in the private schools. The ID movement, although demonstrably erroneous, is making considerable headway on the legislative front. The Academic Bill of Rights that Horowitz is pushing in the majority of states is designed to encourage students to sue their professors if they don't discuss YEC/ID philosophy in their classes. The Bushies have systematically removed science from the underpinnings of public policy, just as they have declared that the US is above international law and not bound by the quaint Geneva conventions or by the UN's human rights watch. YECism is becoming public policy through the Bushies--and along with it, as Science described last week, the end of The Enlightenment. Public policy seems now to be that we don't need science, and we don't need rational thought. All we need is our own personal Absolute Truth, and if you're not with us, you're against us, so watch out.
Panza llena, corazon contento
Post #223
Mea culpa (apologies to any Italian speakers). I had forgotten about the legislator in Florida who wants to allow students to sue their lecturers if they are not allowed "free speech" in the class room. Who ever said that universitys are democratic (from a students point of view)?Thanks, Chem. I agree that evolution is science at its best, and by no means a belief system. However, I reach a different conclusion at the end than you do. The YECs and politicos are not running for cover. They are attacking in full force. The No Child Left Behind law is a transparent effort to move funding from public schools to private schools, and thereby undermine the mostly-Democratic teachers' unions as well as provide taxpayers' dollars to support anti-evolution teaching in the private schools. The ID movement, although demonstrably erroneous, is making considerable headway on the legislative front. The Academic Bill of Rights that Horowitz is pushing in the majority of states is designed to encourage students to sue their professors if they don't discuss YEC/ID philosophy in their classes. The Bushies have systematically removed science from the underpinnings of public policy, just as they have declared that the US is above international law and not bound by the quaint Geneva conventions or by the UN's human rights watch. YECism is becoming public policy through the Bushies--and along with it, as Science described last week, the end of The Enlightenment. Public policy seems now to be that we don't need science, and we don't need rational thought. All we need is our own personal Absolute Truth, and if you're not with us, you're against us, so watch out.
You attend college/university to (hopefully) gain a good education not to foist your beliefs on others. Where will it end?
I know Ireland is far from perfect and we had our own brush with Theocracy (whatever the Church said went) but at least free speech (now) is that and not something paid for by the government!
What would be required is a counter movement that would challange the YEC's/IDers over their claims to want scientific parity with Evolution unfortunately I don't think most supporters of Evolution would fight dirty.
My 5 year old would be horrified by YEC's/IDers and their down play of dinosaurs. As it is he has his heart on becoming a paleontologist, if such a branch of science exists in 15 years.
"I'd rather know than believe" Carl Sagan.
"The worst Government is the most moral. One composed of cynics is often very tolerant and humane. But when the fanatics are on top there is no limit to oppression." H.L. Mencken
"The worst Government is the most moral. One composed of cynics is often very tolerant and humane. But when the fanatics are on top there is no limit to oppression." H.L. Mencken
False and misleading question.
Post #224[quote="Travis"][quote]so why do u believe in evolution or creationism???[/quote]
If this has been posted before [as i hope it has been!] i apologise. I've arrived late.
The question is ignorant in the extreme. Evolution by natural slection is NOT a "belief", it is the mechanism of life. Natural selction is the result of observation and data collection, not something expressed as a statement of "faith". As it stands, the query is foolish. It should have been posted: "Why do you believe in 'creationism'? How do you define that term?
the bunyip
If this has been posted before [as i hope it has been!] i apologise. I've arrived late.
The question is ignorant in the extreme. Evolution by natural slection is NOT a "belief", it is the mechanism of life. Natural selction is the result of observation and data collection, not something expressed as a statement of "faith". As it stands, the query is foolish. It should have been posted: "Why do you believe in 'creationism'? How do you define that term?
the bunyip
Post #225
What are the Creationist hopeing to accomplish by all this ?
Now, to look at the educational part of all of it, in an objective manner. You would see that the European Countries, whom has ´Evolutionary Education´, are managing far better then the U.S Students, whom are forced to face ´Evolution is not True, believe in the Bible Education´---
Is this not a hint on whats bad and whats not ?
You guys have any figures on how much ID is "educated" in the U.S ?
Compared to ´Evolutionary Education´ that is.
And to compare, any figures on how much ID is spread worldwide amongst the civilized nations in the world?
Now, to look at the educational part of all of it, in an objective manner. You would see that the European Countries, whom has ´Evolutionary Education´, are managing far better then the U.S Students, whom are forced to face ´Evolution is not True, believe in the Bible Education´---
Is this not a hint on whats bad and whats not ?
You guys have any figures on how much ID is "educated" in the U.S ?
Compared to ´Evolutionary Education´ that is.
And to compare, any figures on how much ID is spread worldwide amongst the civilized nations in the world?
Post #226
In simple terms, power.What are the Creationist hopeing to accomplish by all this ?
A relevant quote from Robert Heinlein in regards to this situation is:
I think this unfortunately sums up the situation in America at present, where a lot of the legislators side with YEC's/IDers.It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics.
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Post #227
I "believe" in evolution because of the overwhelming evidence that it happened and continues to happen. So far, it's the best explanation we have. I don't know of any other scientific explanation that can account for so much. And although Darwin didn't know about genetics, it turned out that genetics supports evolution.
As for Creation... I must suspend judgement. There's no way for me to know for certain if the universe was created, just popped into existence, or was always there. The Big Bang theory seems well-supported, though. Could that be the "method of Creation"? Maybe. But at the end of the day I must admit that I don't know.
As for Creation... I must suspend judgement. There's no way for me to know for certain if the universe was created, just popped into existence, or was always there. The Big Bang theory seems well-supported, though. Could that be the "method of Creation"? Maybe. But at the end of the day I must admit that I don't know.
My first post here...
Post #228You'll have to excuse me if all of this comes out looking like really bad formatting; HTML was what, like 9th grade maybe? Anyway, I would have to say that I am all for the theory of evolution.
As a child I was taught that the earth and the animals were made by God or whomever you think it was. As I grew older I really started to question that; the more I read the less sense it made. Now I can see no alternative to evolution. Every biology or biochem class I have ever had has made me more sure of it. People talk about things being to complex to have been made on their own, but it's just not true.
Life is complex to be sure, but there is nothing mystical about it. In my biochem courses I have seen the enormity of the systems at work, but also I have seen that they could have arisen without an intelligent hand at work. The main reason I say this is the sequence homology of so many enzymes. It can be seen very easily how one protein can come from another. The similarity between different enzymes performing very different functions is best explained by the idea of gene duplication and mutation.
As a child I was taught that the earth and the animals were made by God or whomever you think it was. As I grew older I really started to question that; the more I read the less sense it made. Now I can see no alternative to evolution. Every biology or biochem class I have ever had has made me more sure of it. People talk about things being to complex to have been made on their own, but it's just not true.
Life is complex to be sure, but there is nothing mystical about it. In my biochem courses I have seen the enormity of the systems at work, but also I have seen that they could have arisen without an intelligent hand at work. The main reason I say this is the sequence homology of so many enzymes. It can be seen very easily how one protein can come from another. The similarity between different enzymes performing very different functions is best explained by the idea of gene duplication and mutation.
Post #229
Welcome to our little discussion, Euglenas!
I would ask, if it's not too personal, how you felt as you made the transition from accepting the creation story to concluding that there is no choice but evolution. Many people have made this transition, but there remain many others who find it too terrifying. One of my friends (or perhaps I should say the son of one of my friends) started college with his heart set on majoring in biology. After a year or two, he switched majors, saying "I either had to switch majors or switch families." He was learning too many reasons to accept evolution, which he had always been taught was forbidden. He couldn't stand the idea of learning that this taboo subject was actually correct, so he fled.
You will find that many of our members have joined the debate because they think they can stump the evolutionists with questions they "know" we can't answer. Others are here seeking information, such as evidence that they did not see in school, so that they can make a more informed decision about the veracity of evolution. I think that the dilemma of leaving what they had previously believed was Truth, and accepting something they had always been told was An Impossible Lie, is one of the big hurdles that is hard to get past. I wonder if your insight might help us here.
Feel free not to answer this, of course. There's plenty of discussion to be had in the biochemical realm!
I would ask, if it's not too personal, how you felt as you made the transition from accepting the creation story to concluding that there is no choice but evolution. Many people have made this transition, but there remain many others who find it too terrifying. One of my friends (or perhaps I should say the son of one of my friends) started college with his heart set on majoring in biology. After a year or two, he switched majors, saying "I either had to switch majors or switch families." He was learning too many reasons to accept evolution, which he had always been taught was forbidden. He couldn't stand the idea of learning that this taboo subject was actually correct, so he fled.
You will find that many of our members have joined the debate because they think they can stump the evolutionists with questions they "know" we can't answer. Others are here seeking information, such as evidence that they did not see in school, so that they can make a more informed decision about the veracity of evolution. I think that the dilemma of leaving what they had previously believed was Truth, and accepting something they had always been told was An Impossible Lie, is one of the big hurdles that is hard to get past. I wonder if your insight might help us here.
Feel free not to answer this, of course. There's plenty of discussion to be had in the biochemical realm!
Panza llena, corazon contento
Post #230
Jose wrote:Welcome to our little discussion, Euglenas!
I would ask, if it's not too personal, how you felt as you made the transition from accepting the creation story to concluding that there is no choice but evolution.
...
I think that the dilemma of leaving what they had previously believed was Truth, and accepting something they had always been told was An Impossible Lie, is one of the big hurdles that is hard to get past. I wonder if your insight might help us here.
...
Feel free not to answer this, of course. There's plenty of discussion to be had in the biochemical realm!
Well to start, my dad is pretty conservative, or used to be, and definitely anti-evolution. We used to go to church every Sunday and I was in some bible group thing. My mom is a psychiatrist and majored in molecular biology; when I was younger we used to go get water from a stream and look at it under a microscope. They got along fine by not talking about it.
Anyway, a while back my dad had a big cerebral hemmorage (sp) and then some kind of infection while he was in the ICU which caused brain swelling and extra damage. Statistically he should be dead or a vegetable, but he's not(he's near communist now actually.) First it made me really question God, i.e. why did this happen, and also wanting to know why it happened got me into biology. Well my mom could supply me with most of that and we still to this day discuss biology for hours.
I think eventually it just became apparent to me that evolution was the only logical course of events; my later schooling really made it so I can't see anything else. When I got into biochem I understood it all so much better and began to really see how a few changes can really affect an organism as a whole. We really are just hairless chimps with big brains. Also, I would contend that an intelligent being would have designed us better, we are really pretty sloppy on the molecular level.
I would say that the main reason many people stick with creationism/intelligent design or whatever is simply a lack of knowledge. It felt really good to move to evolution. I think that's what happened with the son of your friend, the more he learned, the more he had to accept evolution.
