Science vs Science

[Creed]

I was so sick and tired of scientists talking about the impossible to prove God did not exist, so I thought, they're using fire so why can't I? This thought process was developed by me during a period of meditation and constant reasoning. My thoughts started to wander by them selfs, like someone took my hand and was showing me the truth, unimportant. I will use metaphors that you can easily understand so i can get my point across quickly, I have to write a paper tonight. Here I go.. proving God exists in 1000 words or less.

The first concept you must understand is that through freewill you have an unlimited amount of choices. Do to the amount of degrees in a circle and the number of pi, we can conclude an unlimited amount of choices we have to move our hand at any one time. To accept this one fact is to accept that you have an unlimited amount of choices. Yes your choices are limited to the ones you are aware of, but you chose to be aware of a certain selection from infinity.

Where does this go you may ask? Luckily I had some guidance..

Now the metaphor.. Your brain is like a computers hard drive in that it has a finite amount of storage capacity before it reaches full. Now to understand this you have to understand how a computer works. A computer has information.. choices.. but a finite amount of them.. and would be impossible to program infinite amount of choices into a finite object as each choice programed would require room and compile to infinity. Therefore you can say that you can not create AI, you can only simulate AI. Since we have the infinite amount of choices as expressed in step 1 we can conclude that our consciousness does not exist within our body, but rather I would suggest it exists in a form that coincides with the universe simply because there is an infinite amount of space. (Please don't argue there is an end to the universe because you could not describe it, vi save there cant be nothing outside of it.) At this point in my article it is futile to describe to you where the consciousness lies, but I can assure you I have proven it is not in your body, to contradict this reasoning is to be just as ignorant as atheists argue Christians are.

And so we approach the subject of God..
How do I know he exists? The answer is simple, a program can not write itself. -the writer must of understood infinity and could define it.

What is he? A consciousness that understands and can define infinity. If you could understand infinity within the confines of your consciousness I believe you could break reality and mold it.

What do I hope of achieving after writing this? nothing much, just really really needa start my essay so I gotta stop typing. I will leave you here, accept reason or not, the choice is now on your end of the table.

Welcome to reason.

[upallnite]

i know pi is an irrational number but the number of angles from a single point are infinite thats what I was getting at. any help is welcomed. sorry i overreacted.

Don't worry about it. No one ever means it when they say "this will be my last post" on the internet.

Take your time to polish out your argument and come back later. I would also suggest checking out some of the suggested reading. It will at least show you what you are up against.

[Creed]

OK, but the number of angles that I can choose is finite. The number of places that I can position my index finger is finite. Limited by the available range of movement and by the available degree of accuracy. I have a finite number of joints, each with a finite number of angles available. Net result, there are a finite number of positions my body can assume.

The angles given are infinite because if there is one point such as a dot on a paper, you can draw a strait line to the edge at an infinite number of angles between 1 and 360 deg because you can chose a angle with a decimal of any number such as 1.1231241512123489607289... out a billion number decimal places .. degrees and there will always be another number you can draw it out, hence the foundation of infinity in this expression. wouldn't the movement of your hand in the direction of the angle you chose be chosen out of infinity?

tieing back in free will.. it is your free will that give you the ability to chose the angle you want. so wouldn't free will also constitute infinity?

[McCulloch]

The angles given are infinite because if there is one point such as a dot on a paper, you can draw a strait line to the edge at an infinite number of angles between 1 and 360 deg because you can chose a angle with a decimal of any number such as 1.1231241512123489607289... out a billion number decimal places .. degrees and there will always be another number you can draw it out, hence the foundation of infinity in this expression. wouldn't the movement of your hand in the direction of the angle you chose be chosen out of infinity?

If there is on point such as a dot on a paper, you can draw a finite number of distinguishable straight lines. When you draw, the line you draw has a finite thickness and the angle has a measurable margin of error. I can say that I chose to bend a particular joint 14.33. But what I really can accomplish is to bend that joint 142. You see, in the real world, there are a finite number of choices. The number of decimal places become irrelevant lower than my margin of error. It is meaningless to say that I choose to bend 14.1234.

tieing back in free will.. it is your free will that give you the ability to chose the angle you want. so wouldn't free will also constitute infinity?

No. If I have free will -- and you still have not established that I do -- it is that I have the freedom to choose among the available choices. I cannot, for instance, choose to go to the time traveler's convention that will be held in Boston last month.

[Voco]

The angles given are infinite because if there is one point such as a dot on a paper, you can draw a strait line to the edge at an infinite number of angles between 1 and 360 deg because you can chose a angle with a decimal of any number such as 1.1231241512123489607289... out a billion number decimal places .. degrees and there will always be another number you can draw it out, hence the foundation of infinity in this expression. wouldn't the movement of your hand in the direction of the angle you chose be chosen out of infinity?

tieing back in free will.. it is your free will that give you the ability to chose the angle you want. so wouldn't free will also constitute infinity?

What he's getting at here is that you can't draw a line to the edge at an infinite number of angles between 1 and 360 degrees. There ARE an infinite number of possible line locations, but you cannot draw them.

Try it! Take a pencil and paper and draw a line 77 degrees form the vertical. Now draw a line 77.000001 degrees from the vertical. In mathematical theory, these would be different lines. On your paper, you cannot draw them separately, no matter what your intent was.

This is the point. There may, mathematically, be an infinite number of directions in which your hand can move., but there are a finite number of actual results you can produce. This applies to all movement.

There are a finite number of muscles in the body. Each muscle contains a finite number of filaments, each of which can be contracted or relaxed (they cannot be "partially contracted.") Partial force is applied by contracting fewer filaments with less frequency, not partial contraction of the filaments themselves. The entire range of human motion is produced by the contraction of these filaments in different combinations.

As there are a finite number of filaments, and each has a finite number of positions (2), while the number of combinations possible is immense, it is by no means infinite.

The same applies to all aspects of your body. There are an extremely large, but definitely finite, number of physical results that can be produced by sending nervous signals from the brain.

Given all this, how can we have an infinite number of choices? And how are we different in this aspect than a theoretical AI? Indeed, if anything, a sufficiently powerful computer would be able to express many more possible results than a human. Whether or not any current computers can do this is irrelevant, as your assertion is that humans can NEVER create any AI.

[Creed]

The angles given are infinite because if there is one point such as a dot on a paper, you can draw a strait line to the edge at an infinite number of angles between 1 and 360 deg because you can chose a angle with a decimal of any number such as 1.1231241512123489607289... out a billion number decimal places .. degrees and there will always be another number you can draw it out, hence the foundation of infinity in this expression. wouldn't the movement of your hand in the direction of the angle you chose be chosen out of infinity?

If there is on point such as a dot on a paper, you can draw a finite number of distinguishable straight lines. When you draw, the line you draw has a finite thickness and the angle has a measurable margin of error. I can say that I chose to bend a particular joint 14.33. But what I really can accomplish is to bend that joint 142. You see, in the real world, there are a finite number of choices. The number of decimal places become irrelevant lower than my margin of error. It is meaningless to say that I choose to bend 14.1234.

tieing back in free will.. it is your free will that give you the ability to chose the angle you want. so wouldn't free will also constitute infinity?

No. If I have free will -- and you still have not established that I do -- it is that I have the freedom to choose among the available choices. I cannot, for instance, choose to go to the time traveler's convention that will be held in Boston last month.

Whether or not you can measure the difference doesn't mean it doesn't exists, it has to. Logically 2 angles are different when taking a standpoint from a math viewpoint. In the real world math does exist, so the angles must exist whether or not you have the means to measure them, the same way you can not measure the number of degrees in a circle, no measurement is ever perfect, but actual angles are. Your available choices have rules yes, but in certain aspects can be infinite. Even if you only have an infinite way to move one part of your body, degrees wise, then the idea that you have infinite choices would be confirmed.

edit: even if you only had the choice between moving a body part in 1 degree of rotation you could have an infinite amount of angles between those two angles I would say it very much applies. it is hypocritical to say that a angle does not exist because you can't perfectly measure it, of course it exists, it has to exist, to say it doesn't is like saying a mountain doesn't exist because I can't measure the number of atoms in it. We don't have the means to differentiate the angles but they do exist.

edit #2: the lines I'm actually talking about is the angle not the line on the paper. The actual angle that you take does not have a dimension of width, understand?

edit #3: my AIM name is Khelos if anyone wants to chat quicker than posting.

[McCulloch]

Whether or not you can measure the difference doesn't mean it doesn't exists, it has to.

You have not looked up quantum physics or Planck length yet, have you?

Logically 2 angles are different when taking a standpoint from a math viewpoint. In the real world math does exist, so the angles must exist whether or not you have the means to measure them, the same way you can not measure the number of degrees in a circle, no measurement is ever perfect, but actual angles are.

Mathematics is an abstraction that only approximates the real world.

Your available choices have rules yes, but in certain aspects can be infinite. Even if you only have an infinite way to move one part of your body, degrees wise, then the idea that you have infinite choices would be confirmed.

Show me how a finite number of particles where each particle has a minimum distance it can move can be arranged an infinite way. However, this is not your only logical error. You seem to conclude from the assertion that there are an infinite number of ways that we can move, that our consciousness cannot be contained in our brain, because the brain is finite. (Correct me if I misunderstood you). However, even if the human body had an infinite number of ways it can be arranged, you still have not shown that the human consciousness has infinite choice. I do not believe that we can conceive of an infinite number of choices. We can and do only choose between a finite number of actions. There is no infinity required for human consciousness.

edit: even if you only had the choice between moving a body part in 1 degree of rotation you could have an infinite amount of angles between those two angles I would say it very much applies. it is hypocritical to say that a angle does not exist because you can't perfectly measure it, of course it exists, it has to exist, to say it doesn't is like saying a mountain doesn't exist because I can't measure the number of atoms in it. We don't have the means to differentiate the angles but they do exist.

There are more angles that exist than we can choose to use. Since your argument hinges on infinite choice not infinite angles, that is sufficient to shoot it down.

edit #2: the lines I'm actually talking about is the angle not the line on the paper. The actual angle that you take does not have a dimension of width, understand?

My mistake. I thought that we were talking about the real world.

edit #3: my AIM name is Khelos if anyone wants to chat quicker than posting.

No, thank you. I prefer to think thing through. You should try that.

[Creed]

Once again it is the real world, an angle can exist between 3 point without a line drawn between them, such as used in GPS. The angle is there, you don't have to measure it for it to be there. I don't know how to describe it any better.

Weird coincidence that I just woke up.

Edit: you can't measure the angle perfectly, but its there, like the edge of a circle it is there where you can never truly measure its circumference. Personally now that I think about it the first human to come across the concept of God must of be extremely intelligent if he formulated it though logic, more so than anyone alive today.

[OpenedUp]

I'm confused....


Because you can consciously choose to move your hand, God exists?

[ENIGMA]

Two observations:

1) Unlimited and infinite are not synonyms. One has an infinite number of choices when picking a real number between 0 and 1, but that choice is limited (One cannot pick 2, for instance)

2) One can easily create a program that, given a finite (and even pretty small) number of lines of code, can randomly generate any real number between 0 and 1 (all infinite of them). If one were to ask me to do this, and if I weren't busy with something else, I could write such a program in about 5 minutes, give or take.

[Creed]

I'm confused....


Because you can consciously choose to move your hand, God exists?

there are a bit more steps to understanding it, but yes. I know the idea is rather tacky, but with revision and development it could work,and has worked for me. And enigma there is no formula you can write that can generate a decimal that is an infinite places out, vi save Pi, you will never know the true number.

I did however express your choice has to be within the rules of reality, such as your 0-1, 2 metaphor.

if reality is the basis for infinity, independent of choice, then I would have to constitute free will to chose from reality that would constitute the biases of unlimited choice.