Belief in existence of God scientific. Denial - unscientific

[theStudent]

The length of the thread, in the link below, is largely due to repeated questions.on the contained information. The following is open for debate.
Belief in the existence of God is scientific. Denial - unscientific.

For those who disagree with the above, please state why, and/or provide evidence for the following:

• God does not exist.
• God exists only in the mind of the believer.
• Miracles do not happen.
• The Bible is a book of myths.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 14 by theStudent]

You can't prove something does not exist. That is false logic. You can only prove something does exist. If you cannot prove something does exist, the only rational conclusion to reach is that it does not.

Let's test that against the Laws of logic.

The police claim John Killed Joe.
The police can't prove John Killed Joe.
Therefore, John killed Joe.
FAILED

Whoever is making that conclusion is a bad logician. Of COURSE it failed. But it bears very little resemblance to Kenisaw's comments.

Group A claim God exists, and miracles take place.
Group B claim they can't prove it.
Therefore, Group A's claims are false - God does not exist, nor do miracles happen.
FAILED

What a logic mess... let me try to sort it out a bit:

1. Group A makes the claim "God exists".
2. Group B is skeptical and asks for evidence.
3. THEREFORE... God does not exist.

Yeah.. very very bad logic.. who MADE that argument?
Not Kenisaw.

The Law of thought isn't working here.

You bet it isn't. We should fire that lousy logician !!

Therefore, this is not logical, but irrational thinking.

Yup.

But why did you bring it up?
Nobody here made these terrible arguments.

I don't claim that gods, or miracles, or any other supernatural claim, do not exist. I state that there is no known empirical evidence or data that show these claims to be true. Without the data, there is no reason to consider them plausible or realistic.

I have asked you, specifically, to provide even one single scrap of empirical evidence for these things. You haven't. You've posted a few quote mines and some youtube videos showing people's unfounded claims, but you still haven't given us any actual data. No cultist ever has, and the reason why is perfectly obvious - there isn't any. If there were it would have been on every news station and billboard in the country.

I don't agree with you Kenisaw.
I showed that there is evidence.

I didn't see any.

And just because a person does not understand something, that doesn't disprove it.

I didn't see any evidence to understand OR misunderstand.

Are you sure you viewed the right post, because I don't recall it containing videos.
It does contain this quote however,

some things are not scientifically explainable.

THat quote isn't evidence for miracles or the supernatural.

And isn't that the truth.

It doesn't matter.. a truism isn't evidence for any miracle or supernatural.

So how are they able to deduce what is indeed a miracle from a supernatural, or even what is supernatural?

That's a question for those who CLAIM that there are miracles or the supernatural to answer, NOT the skeptics.

The skeptics remind the believers that there is no evidence or mechanism to GET evidence for what is unverifiable. But when miracle claims CAN be verified, and natural explanations are easily discovered for the phenomena, we know that it's nothing "miraculous" or supernatural. We know, for example, that the claim that prayer can heal doesn't pan out in reality. It's been tested. And some of the tests were funded by RELIGIOUS institutions. All of this is documented if you want to look it up.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_o ... ory_prayer

[KenRU]

The length of the thread, in the link below, is largely due to repeated questions.on the contained information. The following is open for debate.
Belief in the existence of God is scientific. Denial - unscientific.

For those who disagree with the above, please state why, and/or provide evidence for the following:

• God does not exist.
• God exists only in the mind of the believer.
• Miracles do not happen.
• The Bible is a book of myths.

I'm confused by what you expect here. Perhaps you can clarify what kind of response you would like to see by showing me how (as ToN asked) you would apply the same criteria for your lack of belief in Zeus or Hercules?

Once I see your acceptable criteria, I might be able to respond.

-all the best

[RonE]

[Replying to post 14 by theStudent]

[Replying to post 6 by Kenisaw]

You can't prove something does not exist. That is false logic. You can only prove something does exist. If you cannot prove something does exist, the only rational conclusion to reach is that it does not.

Let's test that against the Laws of logic.

The police claim John Killed Joe.
The police can't prove John Killed Joe.
Therefore, John killed Joe.
FAILED

Group A claim God exists, and miracles take place.
Group B claim they can't prove it.
Therefore, Group A's claims are false - God does not exist, nor do miracles happen.
FAILED

The Law of thought isn't working here.
Therefore, this is not logical, but irrational thinking.

I don't claim that gods, or miracles, or any other supernatural claim, do not exist. I state that there is no known empirical evidence or data that show these claims to be true. Without the data, there is no reason to consider them plausible or realistic.

I have asked you, specifically, to provide even one single scrap of empirical evidence for these things. You haven't. You've posted a few quote mines and some youtube videos showing people's unfounded claims, but you still haven't given us any actual data. No cultist ever has, and the reason why is perfectly obvious - there isn't any. If there were it would have been on every news station and billboard in the country.

I don't agree with you Kenisaw.
I showed that there is evidence.
And just because a person does not understand something, that doesn't disprove it.

Are you sure you viewed the right post, because I don't recall it containing videos.
It does contain this quote however,

some things are not scientifically explainable.

And isn't that the truth. So how are they able to deduce what is indeed a miracle from a supernatural, or even what is supernatural?

Thank you.

Currently in other topics I have challenged you to provide your evidence of your supernatural god. I haven't said "your god doesn't exist". I ask you for your evidence of your supernatural deity. You made the claim so you need to provide the proof. It's really that simple. Your problem is that you don't provide the evidence that is called for, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. My requests to you have been quite specific about your proofs, "credible scientific proof" is needed what you give us is just garbage.

I think it is time you provide the proof or withdraw your claims.

[RonE]

The length of the thread, in the link below, is largely due to repeated questions.on the contained information. The following is open for debate.
Belief in the existence of God is scientific. Denial - unscientific.

For those who disagree with the above, please state why, and/or provide evidence for the following:

• God does not exist.
• God exists only in the mind of the believer.
• Miracles do not happen.
• The Bible is a book of myths.

I do not make the claims you list here so it is not my responsibility to provide proofs. However, you make the claim that your god exists and is the creator of the universe. This is a claim of supernatural power. So you need to provide proof of your supernatural god, credible scientific proof is required. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 24 by RonE]

The length of the thread, in the link below, is largely due to repeated questions.on the contained information. The following is open for debate.
Belief in the existence of God is scientific. Denial - unscientific.

For those who disagree with the above, please state why, and/or provide evidence for the following:

• God does not exist.
• God exists only in the mind of the believer.
• Miracles do not happen.
• The Bible is a book of myths.

I do not make the claims you list here so it is not my responsibility to provide proofs. However, you make the claim that your god exists and is the creator of the universe. This is a claim of supernatural power. So you need to provide proof of your supernatural god, credible scientific proof is required. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.

Oh great point!!!!

I forgot.. I don't make those claims either!!!!


How funny.

I got caught trying to defend propositions I don't even hold... very tricky, theStudent !!!

So... here we go with the answers to the questions:

1. God does not exist.... I don't know, and I don't think so. Does anyone have evidence that it does?
2. God exists only in the mind of the believer. How should I know.. but I sure don't have any evidence that it exists anywhere else !
3. Miracles do not happen. I don't think they happen.. is there any evidence that they do?
4. The Bible is a book of myths. Sure reads like every other book of myths, is there any evidence that it's literary true?

[Donray]

Does Zeus exist?

Can anyone prove that Zeus is not a god.

There is ample writing that supports Zeus as a god. These writing are early then the Bible.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 26 by Donray]

Does Zeus exist?

Can anyone prove that Zeus is not a god.

There is ample writing that supports Zeus as a god. These writing are early then the Bible.

I touched a non-Zeus once.

( This padding is due to the one liner rule which is a very good rule. )

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 19 by Tired of the Nonsense]

It's relatively easy to prove that a physical thing physically exists, simply by provided the "thing" in question. It's a good deal more difficult to prove that a thing does not exist however, since it is not possible to provide a non extant "thing." The best that can be done is to provide reasons why the apparently non extant probably does not exist.

You are asking for physical proof that a thing with all of the qualities of being non extant does not exist. I am simply suggesting that you first provide us with an example of how one goes about providing physical proof that a non extant thing does not exist! Because none of us has any idea of how to do that. The best we can do is provide reasons why a non extant thing probably does not exist.

The law of identity says, A is A. If something exists, it exists.
The law of non-contradiction says, A cannot be, and yet not be. If something exists, it can't not exist.
The law of excluded middle says, A must either be, or not be. Either it exists, or it doesn't.

I understand that if someone does not know of something, then they cannot know if it is, or is not.

If something physical is shown to someone, they have physical eyes to see it, and therefore know that it exists.
A physically blind person may not know, because they have no way of knowing, unless it is something they are already familiar with, and the other senses may aid them in detecting it.

If something non-physical is shown to someone, they cannot use their physical eyes to detect it. They may have to use other senses that may be able to detect it. If all senses fail to detect it, do they write it off as non-existent? Obviously no.
Are they any non-physical things that we cannot use our physical senses to detect? Certainly.

Magnetic fields
Magnetic fields existed long before man got to know they existed - but they did not not exist (sorry if that's confusing. Just think about it), because man had not discovered, and got to know they exist.
Even so. Man cannot detect these with his physical senses, unless he uses instruments.

The point
Because something is not detected with man's physical senses, doesn't mean it is non-existent.
Because someone cannot take something in existence, and physically show someone, doesn't mean it is non-existent.
Everything has it's own makeup, and is detectable only by what it can be detectable with.

Take "Dark Matter", as it is called...
Dark matter is an unidentified type of matter...

Although dark matter has not been directly observed, its existence and properties are inferred from its gravitational effects such as the motions of visible matter, gravitational lensing, its influence on the universe's large-scale structure, and its effects in the cosmic microwave background. Dark matter is transparent to electromagnetic radiation and/or is so dense and small that it fails to absorb or emit enough radiation to be detectable with current imaging technology.

So questions, since none but one individual, has stated why he disagrees with the information in the link.
If God exists, is it possible to know?
If God exists, with what can we detect him?
If God is omnipotent, who can put him under their physical instruments?

I hope these questions are not as impossible as proving the first four, which by the way I find interesting, since most of you are so bold in your statements, to say,

• God does not exist.
• God exists only in the mind of the believer.
• Miracles do not happen.
• The Bible is a book of myths.

I would have thought all of them would have been easy to prove.
Why say something so dogmatically, if you have no proof for those claims?

Would it be fair to expect that Christians should respond?
And how about your example TON... Should Christians follow your example, "Well if you can answer my questions, then I'll answer yours"?

Well I suggest they do, anytime they are drilled for proof of those four claims, on the premise that you admit, they are impossible to prove.

But not even the one about the Bible being a book of myths, and folklore?
Truly, that one has go me stunned.

Well of course there is this one physical proof. All experimentation and observation have resulted in the recognition of a law of physics known as the law of conservation of energy. It simply states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but only changed in form. Since Einstein established that E=MC^2, which establishes that mass is simply one of the forms that energy takes, it becomes physically apparent that no creator created mass/energy. Because mass/energy cannot be created, according to all observation. That is about as definite as physical evidence of the non existence of something is likely to get. Physical evidence has no effect on, and does not limit the imagination however. Which is perfectly capable of conjuring up matter/energy creators with a single thought.

Thank you.

Matter can also turn into energy, and energy into matter

because mass (like energy) can neither be created nor destroyed, the quantity of mass and the quantity of energy remain the same during a transformation of matter (which represents a certain amount of energy) into non-material (i.e., non-matter) energy. This is also true in the reverse transformation of energy into matter.

So would I be safe to say that one or both, always existed?
If yes,
Then let me add a fourth question. Can we know, and how would we know which one did if only one existed?

[wiploc]

The length of the thread, in the link below, is largely due to repeated questions.on the contained information. The following is open for debate.
Belief in the existence of God is scientific. Denial - unscientific.

For those who disagree with the above, please state why, and/or provide evidence for the following:

• God does not exist.
• God exists only in the mind of the believer.
• Miracles do not happen.
• The Bible is a book of myths.

Shift the burden of proof much?

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 22 by KenRU]

Did you read the link in the OP?
If not please read it.

If you did, then you hold the key to understanding the thread.
If you still don't understand, then I'm sorry. I can't think of any way I can help you.