Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

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Post by Diogenes »

In clinical practice, no clear guidelines exist to distinguish between "normal" religious beliefs and "pathological" religious delusions. Historically, psychiatrists such as Freud have suggested that all religious beliefs are delusional, while the current DSM-IV definition of delusion exempts religious doctrine from pathology altogether. ....
Religious beliefs and delusions alike can arise from neurologic lesions and anomalous experiences, suggesting that at least some religious beliefs can be pathological. Religious beliefs exist outside of the scientific domain; therefore they can be easily labeled delusional from a rational perspective.....
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15990520/
The question for debate is stated in the title, Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?
A subordinate question: Should we distinguish between a learned belief in supernatural phenomena and those who believe and attribute their beliefs to personal experience... and how could we tell?
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #141

Post by Inquirer »

Jose Fly wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:47 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:34 pm So in your mind that proves there never ever were any?

So in your mind that proves there never ever were any?
It shows that there is zero evidence for people living for 900 years, beyond stories.
No, it does not "show" any such thing, An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, furthermore there is the historic evidence, the written record, I told you about that but it seems you forgot.
Jose Fly wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:47 pm Thus, believing that people lived for 900 years is as delusional as believing that a 90 foot tall logger existed in the American west.
Who believes a 90 foot tall logger existed?
Jose Fly wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:27 pm Further, the data shows that human lifespans were in the range of 25-30 years for most of our history and it's only been in the last half century or so that average lifespans have exceeded 40 years.
No that's not true either, read this:
This cartoon reflects a very common view of ancient lifespans, but it is based on a myth. People in the past were not all dead by 30. Ancient documents confirm this. In the 24th century B.C., the Egyptian Vizier Ptahhotep wrote verses about the disintegrations of old age. The ancient Greeks classed old age among the divine curses, and their tombstones attest to survival well past 80 years. Ancient artworks and figurines also depict elderly people: stooped, flabby, wrinkled.
and
So what is the source of the myth that those in the past must have died young? One has to do with what we dig up. When ancient human remains are found, archaeologists and biological anthropologists examine the skeletons and attempt to estimate their sex, age, and general health. Markers of growth and development, such as tooth eruption, provide relatively accurate age estimates of children. With adults, however, estimates are based on degeneration.
From: Anthropology Magazine.
Noted. I also note that your source states:

"So it seems that humans evolved with a characteristic lifespan. Mortality rates in traditional populations are high during infancy, before decreasing sharply to remain constant till about 40 years, then mortality rises to peak at about 70. Most individuals remain healthy and vigorous right through their 60s or beyond, until senescence sets in, which is the physical decline where if one cause fails to kill, another will soon strike the mortal blow."

So yet another line of evidence against the belief that people lived for 900 years. Thanks.
[/quote]

Note their careful use of languages Jose "it seems that humans evolved with a characteristic lifespan".

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #142

Post by Jose Fly »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:48 pm I think some of the confusion here points to how tangled up the two ideas can become in the theist.
Could be, or it could just be an artifact of someone who reflexively argues against certain people and in the process loses track of what they're actually arguing against.
I understood clearly you were getting at those who hold the belief, and not those who wrote it (especially where you were specific with possible genres).
Well I hope so! It's not like it's a difficult concept to grasp. :D
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #143

Post by Jose Fly »

Inquirer wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:53 pm No, it does not "show" any such thing, An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
That's not what I said. I said it shows there is no evidence, other than stories, for people living 900 years.
furthermore there is the historic evidence, the written record, I told you about that but it seems you forgot.
Again, pay closer attention to what you're replying to. I specifically added "beyond stories".

I acknowledge that the only evidence you've presented for people living 900 years are stories. But as we agreed, stories are not necessarily indications that something is true. We have stories of a 90 foot tall logger in the American west, yet if anyone said they believed those stories were true, most folks would think that delusional.
Who believes a 90 foot tall logger existed?
No one, which is exactly the point. If anyone did, they would likely be considered delusional. The same is true for 900 year old people.
Note their careful use of languages Jose "it seems that humans evolved with a characteristic lifespan".
Yes, I agree. In light of the data they cited it does seem that way.
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #144

Post by Inquirer »

Jose Fly wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:58 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:53 pm No, it does not "show" any such thing, An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
That's not what I said. I said it shows there is no evidence, other than stories, for people living 900 years.
Wrong again, not finding evidence is not the same thing as there being no evidence.

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #145

Post by Jose Fly »

Inquirer wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:00 pm Wrong again, not finding evidence is not the same thing as there being no evidence.
As it stands, there is no evidence (outside of stories) of people living 900 years. If you are claiming there is additional evidence, present it. Otherwise the point stands.
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #146

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Jose Fly wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:53 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: I understood clearly you were getting at those who hold the belief, and not those who wrote it (especially where you were specific with possible genres).
Well I hope so! It's not like it's a difficult concept to grasp. :D
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #147

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Inquirer wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:00 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:58 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:53 pm No, it does not "show" any such thing, An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence
That's not what I said. I said it shows there is no evidence, other than stories, for people living 900 years.
Wrong again, not finding evidence is not the same thing as there being no evidence.
It sure don't a claim one bit though.
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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #148

Post by William »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:29 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:53 pm
JoeyKnothead wrote: I understood clearly you were getting at those who hold the belief, and not those who wrote it (especially where you were specific with possible genres).
Well I hope so! It's not like it's a difficult concept to grasp. :D
He said, his voice dripping with obviosity:wave:
Oh I don't know JK. Maybe you're reading more into this than is...

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #149

Post by Inquirer »

Jose Fly wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:11 pm
Inquirer wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:00 pm Wrong again, not finding evidence is not the same thing as there being no evidence.
As it stands, there is no evidence (outside of stories) of people living 900 years. If you are claiming there is additional evidence, present it. Otherwise the point stands.
How do you differentiate between there being no evidence existing and you not being aware of evidence that exists? How can you tell the difference between these two possibilities?

I put it to you that you cannot so no, the "point" does not stand at all, it is conjecture, speculation, belief and that - rationally - can only lead to one conclusion Jose - you simply do not know if some individuals lived to an age of 900+ years.

All you can do is be disinclined in believing the Biblical record, I can respect such a view, it is a rational view, the claim that people lived 900+ years is not something I'd expect anyone to accept without some good reason, I understand and accept that view.

But that is not your view is it...

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Re: Are Religious Beliefs Delusional?

Post #150

Post by Jose Fly »

Inquirer wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:12 pm How do you differentiate between there being no evidence existing and you not being aware of evidence that exists? How can you tell the difference between these two possibilities?
I look. Also, given the subject at hand (900 year old people) one would think if there was actually evidence of such a thing, it would be pretty well known.

It's no different than 90 foot tall loggers in the American west. If there were evidence for that, I'm pretty sure we'd all know about it.
I put it to you that you cannot so no, the "point" does not stand at all, it is conjecture, speculation, belief and that - rationally - can only lead to one conclusion Jose - you simply do not know if some individuals lived to an age of 900+ years.
Again, the fact remains that no one has presented any evidence (outside of stories) of 900 year old people. If you have some, present it. Otherwise all this is just an attempt to divert from that reality.
All you can do is be disinclined in believing the Biblical record, I can respect such a view, it is a rational view, the claim that people lived 900+ years is not something I'd expect anyone to accept without some good reason, I understand and accept that view.
I can safely conclude that the stories of 900 year old people are extremely unlikely to be true, just as I can conclude that the stories of 90 foot loggers in the American west are extremely unlikely to be true.
But that is not your view is it...
What specifically are you referring to?
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