Is being Transgender a choice?

[AgnosticBoy]

I'm of the opinion that gender expression is a result of social conditioning. I know I used the word "choice" in the title, but that's only because people tend to associate behavior that can be changed or conditioned as being a "choice" (borrowing from the debate on born this way vs. choice).

In this thread, I want to focus on being transgender. Based on my above opinion, I also believe that being transgender is also a result of social conditioning (i.e. childhood experiences, what they learn from society, etc). If I'm right then I think that the recent focus on transgenderism in the media, in Hollywood, in schools, could lead some children to become transgender. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I also bring these points up because when some parents complain about their kids learning about transgenderism in school, the reaction is that it won't impact (some say "groom" ) the child into becoming transgender. If my view is correct, I think the pro-trans crowd should acknowledge that it can potentially influence children AND there's nothing wrong with that.

For Debate
1. Is being transgender a result of social conditioning?
2. Edit: Removed. Teaching kids about gender identity can be a separate thread.

[brunumb]

If I'm right then I think that the recent focus on transgenderism in the media, in Hollywood, in schools, could lead some children to become transgender. And there is nothing wrong with that.

That really depends. There is nothing wrong with people being transgender if it is the result of a mental condition that is essentially untreatable. But, for young people in particular, being influenced to change sex where there is no genuine underlying medical or psychological reason, that to me is problematic. It is not quite as simple as dressing differently and expressing oneself as the opposite of one's biological sex. Transvestism should not be confused with transgenderism. Medical and surgical interventions have lifelong serious lasting implications that young people may not fully understand and appreciate. Loss of sexual function, the inability to orgasm or produce children, never ending reliance on hormones and other medical treatments, chronic pain. The list goes on. So, it is not as simple as saying there is nothing wrong with it because it may have been unnecessary in the first place. If people want to present themselves by going against previous gender stereotypes, good on them. We have reached a time when that should be completely acceptable. It's ironic how we are now using the gender stereotypes we fought so hard to abolish as a means to now declare that someone must somehow be the opposite of their biological sex. Notice too that it is all still binary in nature.

[Clownboat]

.
So what evidence do you have for attributing social conditioning as reason for gender expression?

.

Not evidence, but here we go...
A friend of mine has 4 children. Three so far are transgender/non binary. (The 4th is 7-8 yrs old, so not being included even though the writing is on the wall). (They were all born as biological females by the way). One has gone from non-binary to being a boy and now back again to non-binary.

Being an odds guy, what are the odds that 3 out of 3 all have gender expression issues? This suggest that social conditioning may be at play, but I do not pretend to know, just considering the odds game.

I assume you're discounting a genetic component altogether. If this is true, why?

.

Are genetics involved when it comes to gender expression? If so, I am not aware.
As I said above: "I do not pretend to know".

Now imagine a scenario. We are all adults now and survived our own struggles when we were young. Many of those struggles being related to being self conscious about something or feeling bullied or what have you.

What if parents were using (I do not know that my friend has done this or not) gender issues as a bit of a lifeline. For example, a 12 year old that is being picked on and parents offering up, "perhaps you are being picked on due to gender issues".
I could see children picking up what is being offered to them as a reason for their suffering, but perhaps it's just kids being mean, like we all went through at some point in our lives.

Now let's take a more specific scenario... say we have a tom boyish girl, or a gay boy. We all got picked on and the tom boyish girl and the gay boy will not be an exception. Now imagine parents/counselors suggesting to the girl or the gay boy in this scenario that perhaps they are having struggles because they are trans or born in the wrong body... A kid just might latch on to that to explain their pain when in reality they might just be tom boyish or gay. When my kids were children, I could have convinced them that I hung the moon, so it's hard to say how far a suggestion like the one I offer might go. Enough to suggest to the gay boy that he is just a girl in a boys body perhaps?

I'm only speculating here obviously, but curious about your thoughts.

[Purple Knight]

So if we can accept that transgenderism can be socially conditioned, and those that have been impacted by that can lead good lives, then I move from that to also conclude that teaching kids about it would also be harmless, even if they are impacted by it. They could live the same good lives that others who came out later on in their lives would live. However, you bring up a point about hijacking the kids personality, which I assume is the same as "pushing" it on children. The way I see it though is that kids will get exposed to it either way. I can agree with you in that I wouldn't want my kid being deliberately pushed towards something without my approval, especially if it conflicts with how I want to raise my child. Ideally, I'd want kids to at least learn the facts, learn about different lifestyles. The alternative I fear is doing what Florida governor Ron DeSantis is criticized of which is trying to eliminate any topic or discussion of LGBT in elementary schools.

But the idea that you can and should discuss it goes both ways. If you can have a scantily clad trans woman strip dancing in front of kids, then you can also invite a cis woman to do the same.

Would any of this be okay if these gay men were straight men, and these trans women were cis women? I have to say no. That's what has to change if you want to advocate for exposure. (Start at 5:18, and I do not agree that it's "depraved" - it's just, you can't only teach children one thing. That is hijacking their ability to choose.)

[AgnosticBoy]

Are genetics involved when it comes to gender expression? If so, I am not aware.
As I said above: "I do not pretend to know".

There are studies that that show genes play a role, but just like other complex behavior, genes alone do not cause people to be transgender. For instance, genes play a big role in obesity but that doesn't mean that you are going to be fat since environmental factors (lifestyle choices, exercise, nutritional/eating habits) can mitigate genetic factors. Unfortunately, the biology-only crowd (or bioessentialists) usually want genes or only innate factors to be the case so they can say that there’s no changing, no choice at all, or perhaps more recently, to alleviate concerns about the topic of transgenderism in schools being used to influence children. And of course, the choice only crowd (mostly conservative Christians) want to downplay the biological factors and make it seem like a simple choice. No evidence of choice (except choosing gender affirming treatments) exists that can alleviate gender dysphoria, for instance.

[AgnosticBoy]

That really depends. There is nothing wrong with people being transgender if it is the result of a mental condition that is essentially untreatable. But, for young people in particular, being influenced to change sex where there is no genuine underlying medical or psychological reason, that to me is problematic. It is not quite as simple as dressing differently and expressing oneself as the opposite of one's biological sex. Transvestism should not be confused with transgenderism. Medical and surgical interventions have lifelong serious lasting implications that young people may not fully understand and appreciate. Loss of sexual function, the inability to orgasm or produce children, never ending reliance on hormones and other medical treatments, chronic pain. The list goes on. So, it is not as simple as saying there is nothing wrong with it because it may have been unnecessary in the first place. If people want to present themselves by going against previous gender stereotypes, good on them. We have reached a time when that should be completely acceptable. It's ironic how we are now using the gender stereotypes we fought so hard to abolish as a means to now declare that someone must somehow be the opposite of their biological sex. Notice too that it is all still binary in nature.

Should gender dysphoria be the only reason for being transgender? Medical/scientific organizations such as the American Psychological Association (scroll down to the 2nd faq) says that people can still be transgender even if they don't experience gender dysphoria. Not sure the trans people that come out later on in life, like Katelyn Jenner, are better able to handle identifying differently than their birth gender. Then again, the APA has also said that people can be transgender for different reasons. Either way, this is one reason why I suspect that environmental factors can play a bigger role in shaping gender identity than what many think it does. SOme would be more influenced by environmental factors than others.

[oldbadger]

For Debate
1. Is being transgender a result of social conditioning?

People who believe that they were born with the wrong gender may have existed through all time, only today they are able to seek to change gender through surgery.

I don't think that transgenders are influenced by the societies they live in, and I do not think that to undertake such a huge journey of many surgeries and surrounded by so much bigotry could possibly be a choice. It's a drive........

[brunumb]

The issue is far more complex than can be acknowledged by a simple yes or no answer to the question posed.
This clip is very enlightening.

PSYCHIATRIST: How the Transgender Movement Happened

[oldbadger]

The issue is far more complex than can be acknowledged by a simple yes or no answer to the question posed.
This clip is very enlightening.

PSYCHIATRIST: How the Transgender Movement Happened

One homophobic psychiatrist's opinion, riding on a wave of homophobia.........

[brunumb]

One homophobic psychiatrist's opinion, riding on a wave of homophobia.........

Nothing to do with homophobia! Good grief. Is that all you've got.

If you actually listen to what these people are saying and follow the trail you might actually come to the realisation that gender ideology has no basis in facts, nor is the opposition to what is loosely defined as "gender affirming care" based on any hatred.

Ironically, it is the aggressive and intolerant behaviour of trans activists that is generating a negative reaction to all LGBTetc people. Facts are not on their side, so they do not argue but attack and cancel instead. Sadly, I have been driven from a position of complete indifference to now being fed up. The sight of those endless flags and badges advertising the sexual proclivities of a small part of the population is becoming a negative trigger.

[oldbadger]

One homophobic psychiatrist's opinion, riding on a wave of homophobia.........

Nothing to do with homophobia! Good grief. Is that all you've got.

If you actually listen to what these people are saying and follow the trail you might actually come to the realisation that gender ideology has no basis in facts, nor is the opposition to what is loosely defined as "gender affirming care" based on any hatred.

Ironically, it is the aggressive and intolerant behaviour of trans activists that is generating a negative reaction to all LGBTetc people. Facts are not on their side, so they do not argue but attack and cancel instead. Sadly, I have been driven from a position of complete indifference to now being fed up. The sight of those endless flags and badges advertising the sexual proclivities of a small part of the population is becoming a negative trigger.

I did actually listen to some of that rambling waffling waste of time, but it is an opinion, no more, and I have my own.
Transgender drive is clearly based upon facts because so many people do and have felt that they were in the wrong gender.
This isn't new, it has existed under the surface of our communities for all time, I reckon. I cannot remember ever meeting with a transgender person, but a transvestite male lived opposite our home in the 70's and looked amazing when he went out on his bicycle which he could ride whilst wearing very high heels. He was a very nice person.

As with so many ideologies and strong movements there will be aggressive elements within and these display themselves more openly in areas where the bigotry against them is highest/largest. You don't like transgender people advertising themselves, I notice, but wherever I look I can see advertising of one kind or another. The louder the voices of a particular group, so the more threatening is the community or nation where they live. I see more green activists around here than any groups demonstrating about their sexuality.