The Bible vs. God-of-the-gaps

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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wgreen
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The Bible vs. God-of-the-gaps

Post #1

Post by wgreen »

I am not satisfied with a "God of the Gaps" approach in which we invoke God to explain phenomena which have not been successfully explained yet by science. It seems that whenever people have done this, science eventually comes up with a satisfactory explanation.

The problem with the approach is that it is materialistic. When we Christians use the God of-the-gaps defense, we betray our underlying materialistic assumption: that nature has the power to operate on its own. Materialism is defined as “The theory that physical matter is the only reality and that everything, including thought, feeling, mind, and will, can be explained in terms of matter and physical phenomena (American Heritage Dictionary, 1994).”

According to materialism, nature has the power to operate on its own. When we focus on the “gaps” in scientific understanding, we show that we think that there is no need for God if there is a scientific explanation invoking “natural” processes. We think that as long as there is an explanation that keeps with physical laws, then no divine involvement is necessary.

The Scriptures present a different picture.

Amos 4:13
For behold,
He who forms mountains,
And creates the wind,
Who declares to man what his thought is,
And makes the morning darkness,
Who treads the high places of the earth—
The Lord God of hosts is His name.

Note the present tense. He controls erosion and plate tectonics. He controls the wind (which involves solar radiation and the rotation of the earth).

Psalm 147:8—9
Who covers the heavens with clouds,
Who prepares rain for the earth,
Who makes grass to grow on the mountains.
He gives to the beast its food,
And to the young ravens that cry.

He controls the weather. He makes grass grow. Wait, I thought we knew what made grass grow. Plant hormones induce cell division according to the pattern dictates by DNA. But we are talking about fundamental cause here. Chemistry and biology describe, not explain.

Because the universe is controlled by a God of order, it functions in an orderly, predictable manner. It is no surprise that it appears to be “governed” by physical laws, and functions like “clockwork.”

It follows also that the same evidence for a self-contained, self-sustaining, cause-effect universe (proposed by materialists) can be just as easily taken as evidence of control by an orderly God.

It “seems” obvious to us that physical objects and events have their own “causal powers,” but this is only because of our experience. It does not arise from logic or necessity. David Hume has shown (plato.stanford.edu/entries/hume/) that our idea of cause comes only from our experience. We have experienced the correlation of certain events, and expect that they will happen in certain sequences and relations in the future as they have in the past. This is “cause.” Of course, this is not what we often mean by cause. We usually mean that an event causes another when that event necessitates the other. The second event must happen when the first occurs. This cannot be proven by logic or science. Much less can it be proven that a given object or event is a sufficient cause of another.

The Biblical view is one of God as Cause. The materialistic view is one of Universe as its own Cause. Neither view can be proven. Both are accepted by their proponents as “brute fact.”

Which is more reasonable, that there exists a self-caused, self-sustaining, self-contained universe, or that there exists a universe created by an orderly God?

Of course, the question need not hang unanswered. We can bring other considerations to bear at this point.
:D

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss these issues.
This looks like a great forum.

Sincerely,

Bill Green

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Re: Reasons

Post #11

Post by wgreen »

Jose wrote:
In short, in all of the ways that we have been able to measure, we find that the stuff in the universe behaves as if it follows a set of natural laws, some of which we have been able to describe.

Now, it may be that all of this is bunk, and there is some supernatural entity causing everything to work the way it does. However, said entity has been very cagey about it, and has kept his efforts hidden very well, as if he wants us to conclude that he's not actually causing things to work the way they do. Since he has given us no clues about his existence, or how he works, we pretty much have to work things out on our own, based on what we can discover about how the world works.
Thanks for your reply, Jose. No, this is not all bunk. God does cause the world to function in an orderly way, a way that we can describe even mathematically and predict with great precision. His work is not hidden. He does not want us to conclude that because the world is orderly, therefore it is self-caused and self-sustaining. We see that rocks always fall to the ground when dropped. We can describe this with mathematical equations. We give the numbers and equations names: "force," "acceleration," "gravity." Then we say that gravity causes the rock to fall. We have not discovered what "causes" the rock to fall. God wants us to conclude that He causes the rock to fall in a way that can be described by certain equations.
Jose wrote: That is, I don't "believe in" a materialistic universe. "Belief" is a matter of faith. Rather, I look at the world around me, and try to figure out what it's telling me. If it turns out that the information the world gives me points to a particular type of interpretation, then, well, it looks like that interpretation is the best one.
My definition of belief is "Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something (American Heritage Dictionary, 1994)." I might add that it does involve the idea the what is believed in cannot be proven, but then, of course, a belief in materialism would fit this definition. O:)

When I look at the world around me, I see God's action.

Sincerely,

Bill Green

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Dear Gollum

Post #12

Post by wgreen »

Gollum wrote:

The presumption of an "orderly" God as the ultimate creator and causal agent of all that exists, sticks in the craw of many of us precisely because it does not stand to reason. It may be the most comfortable or require the least effort but any proposal that has no supporting evidence beyong conjecture cannot be called reasonable.

With all due respect to David Hume, certainly causality may be viewed as exceptionless correlation but even that seems preferable to causality attributed to forces, methods and reasons unknown and unknowable.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "exceptionless correlation," but I think that it means correlations of events for which we have yet to find exceptions, and these are to be accepted as causal relationships. This is certainly a reasonable approach to identifying what are commonly called causal relationships. Though we would certainly have to qualify this with some mechanism for ruling out "common causes."

There is little doubt that it is this kind of constant correlation that gives us our anticipation of certain events following others, as Hume pointed out.

I submit, however, that this does not imply "cause," in the sense of a sufficient explanation of the events.

Our supposition that event A causes (necessitates and sufficiently explains) event B is based on our interpretation of our experience.

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Post #13

Post by Gollum »

When I look at the world around me, I see God's action.
No. I suspect that you see exactly what Jose or I see ... specifically, the orderly and predictable operation of the workings of nature. You, because of your faith, infer God in that. I (though I can't speak for Jose) do not because I'm not convinced that the addition of God is necessary or even warranted. After all, the whole thing would look and work exactly the same as it does now without the assumption of God so why complicate the picture?

The "materialism is belief because it cannot be proven" notion is a bit over my head. It seems to involve some definition of "proof" with which I'm unacquainted. I always took proof to mean the existence of verifiable, independent evidence. Since there's loads of material evidence for a material world, I gather that you have some other definition of proof in mind.

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Dear Gollum, cont.

Post #14

Post by wgreen »

Sorry, I posted that last message before I was done.
Gollum wrote:With all due respect to David Hume, certainly causality may be viewed as exceptionless correlation but even that seems preferable to causality attributed to forces, methods and reasons unknown and unknowable.
:-k You seem to be implying here (and I'm probably misreading you) that the fact that causation cannot be proven implies that causes do not exist. This is not necessarily the case, even, I think, in Hume's view. In the following I will assume you do not mean this.

You say that "exceptionless correlation" seems preferable to causality attributed to unknowable forces. I'm guessing that you mean that the inference of materialistic cause-effect relationships based on exceptionless correlation is preferable to invoking unseen causes.

I think I see what you are saying, though I don't agree that it is preferable. I don't think that attributing causative powers to physical objects is preferable to placing the causative power with an unseen cause. We essentially do this all the time when we attribute the falling of stones to the "force of gravity."

To me, it is hard to believe that objects just obey laws and "that's all there is to it."

I'm not sure what you mean by "unknowable." I don't believe God is unknowable. I do believe that His action is evident in the world. Too often, however, we view the world through the glasses of materialism.

Thanks for your input. :D

Sincerely,

Bill Green

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Prove

Post #15

Post by wgreen »

Prove: To establish the truth or validity of by presentation of argument or evidence(American Heritage Dictionary, 1994).

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Post #16

Post by QED »

It is undeniable that science has been steadily filling in gaps formerly occupied by some imagined deity or other throughout the history of mankind.

This process can be seen as a chase - and it's perfectly possible that science may one day catch up with the god(s) at work, although the work may have been such as to prevent this from ever happening. Equally well of course, science may be chasing after nothing more than an illusion. Given our remarkable imagination (the same imagination that makes many people scared of the dark) I tend towards the latter.

Either way, the material universe appears to have been perfectly capable of getting on with its job since day one as it were. Science has no shortage of models that allow causality to be audited all the way back to a horizon some 10 to 20 billion light years away (despite protestations from vitalists that life requires some sort of special intervention - and, in the ultimate act of hubris, from those that insist humans are somehow set apart from the rest of life on this planet)

Is it not so that without any further research, we already have sufficient data to dispense with the notion of an interactive deity?
  • All the moral wrangling that goes on in debates about the behaviour of godless individuals can be resolved through acceptance of the evolutionarly inspired motives behind lust, greed etc. Once these classic 'sins' can be seen in such a context they become managable in a far more efficent manner and thus the traditional fumbling approach of religiously inspired guilt becomes redundant. Those seeking reasurance and certainties could do little better than to look to History and natural philosophy in order to satisfy their yearnings.

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Dear QED

Post #17

Post by wgreen »

QED wrote:Either way, the material universe appears to have been perfectly capable of getting on with its job since day one as it were. Science has no shortage of models that allow causality to be audited all the way back to a horizon some 10 to 20 billion light years away (despite protestations from vitalists that life requires some sort of special intervention - and, in the ultimate act of hubris, from those that insist humans are somehow set apart from the rest of life on this planet)
Dear QED,

I'm sorry, apparently you have missed my point. I guess I have not been clear in previous posts. The universe only appears to be getting along on its own if you start with materialistic assumptions. That the universe works like "clockwork" can be taken as evidence that it is a self-caused, self-sustaining "clock," or that the universe is functioning according to the will of an orderly God. More info on this has been given in previous posts.

QED wrote:Is it not so that without any further research, we already have sufficient data to dispense with the notion of an interactive deity?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "interactive" deity. If God is in absolute control of natural processes, as I believe, then He is by definition interacting with His creation in avery intimate way.

Thanks for your reply. O:)

Sincerely,

Bill Green

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Re: Dear QED

Post #18

Post by QED »

wgreen wrote: Dear QED,

I'm sorry, apparently you have missed my point. I guess I have not been clear in previous posts. The universe only appears to be getting along on its own if you start with materialistic assumptions. That the universe works like "clockwork" can be taken as evidence that it is a self-caused, self-sustaining "clock," or that the universe is functioning according to the will of an orderly God. More info on this has been given in previous posts.
No I understood perfectly when you quoted Hume in your opening piece. I'm sorry to say that every disagreement along these lines comes down to a radical proposition which is made safe by way of its formulation. By packaging thousands of years of human enquirery and experience into something called "materialism" it is easy for it to be traded with aparently alternative scenarios of a metaphysical nature. What always gets overlooked is that this only works at a particular level - that of conjecture.

It's not easy getting a handle on this issue because there is no accepted way of ascribing value to a given approach. The metaphysical approach lies beyond the reach of the physical by definition, hence cannot be touched by our best set of analytical tools. Before you criticise these tools for all their shortcomings, they have served us very well in uncovering an ever increasing number of the mysteries of nature and it would be unreasonable to suggest that they will not continue to do so.

While there are those who seem to gain a peculiar form of pleasure from denying it, there is a certain reality to our universe. It gives us life and allows us to explore it. If we can't tell the difference between imaginary conjecture constructed around untestable hypothesis and real explanations based on material understanding then we are kidding ourselves in a potentially dangerous way.
QED wrote:Is it not so that without any further research, we already have sufficient data to dispense with the notion of an interactive deity?
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "interactive" deity. If God is in absolute control of natural processes, as I believe, then He is by definition interacting with His creation in avery intimate way.
To postulate such a god is meaningless. It falls into the same set as all other arguments based on untestable hypothesis. Indeed in common with all other matters of faith it represents an idea which is both appealing (to some) and due to a quirk of logic wears a cloak of indestructability. It seems that such irrefutable ideas are frequently confused with more deserving forms of truth.

I ask everyone to consider the situation where someone makes a claim that is framed in such a way as to be indisputable, leaving others a choice between either accepting it on faith - or, as is much more likely in the case of extreme assertions, simply dismissing it as being preposterous...

...Yet when faced with something as extreme as a supernatural solution to everything we are expected to make an exception just because the idea has been kicking around for a very long time - no doubt due to it's massive appeal. Why does such loose thinking deserve to be taken seriously? What merits something that amounts to no more than wishfull thinking to be tolerated other than through a peculiar form of etiquette? (One that you may notice I choose to ignore!)

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Post #19

Post by Jose »

wgreen wrote:I don't think that attributing causative powers to physical objects is preferable to placing the causative power with an unseen cause. We essentially do this all the time when we attribute the falling of stones to the "force of gravity."

To me, it is hard to believe that objects just obey laws and "that's all there is to it." ...

The universe only appears to be getting along on its own if you start with materialistic assumptions. That the universe works like "clockwork" can be taken as evidence that it is a self-caused, self-sustaining "clock," or that the universe is functioning according to the will of an orderly God.
I see what you are saying here, but isn't it the case that there is no possible way to distinguish this from the total absence of a god pulling the strings? Why would any god want to be so completely hidden from the people he created that no one can actually tell he's there? On the other hand, if it is your personal belief that natural events just can't happen, and that there has to be a god directing everything, then sure, why not?
wgreen wrote:I would say that hormones and cell division are both descriptions of God's action.

I define "explanation" as "To offer reasons for or a cause of; justify: explain an error(American Heritage Dictionary, 1994)." I don't believe that hormones are an explanation of plant growth in this sense. Both hormonal action and plant growth are descriptions of certain cases of God's predictable action in the natural world.
We use the term "explanation" to refer to how things happen, probably as a description of the mechanism. I would not call it materialistic; I would call it working from the evidence for any description at all that provides a description of how things happen. We can certainly say that God causes root tips to produce cytokinins, and shoot tips to produce auxins, but we have no evidence for anything beyond the hormones themselves, and the genes and proteins that are involved in making certain cells produce them. Without evidence, there is no reason--save Faith--to invoke anything more. Indeed, according to the rules of the game, in which we must have evidence to support any inference, then we cannot yet invoke gods of any kind. They must show themselves first.
Panza llena, corazon contento

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Re: God's Action

Post #20

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wgreen wrote:Dear rjw,

Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry. I guess I wasn't entirely clear. I would say that hormones and cell division are both descriptions of God's action.

I define "explanation" as "To offer reasons for or a cause of; justify: explain an error(American Heritage Dictionary, 1994)." I don't believe that hormones are an explanation of plant growth in this sense. Both hormonal action and plant growth are descriptions of certain cases of God's predictable action in the natural world.


I don't think I'm reading into the Biblical texts here. I think theses verses say that God is the cause of natural processes. These verses don't describe these processes in detail (e.g. Amos 4:13--He who drives plate tectonics and causes thrust faulting), but they present God as cause of ongoing processes.

Psalm 104:10—15 (NKJV)
He sends the springs into the valleys;
They flow among the hills.
They give drink to every beast of the field;
The wild donkeys quench their thirst.
By them the birds of the heavens have their home;
They sing among the branches.
He waters the hills from His upper chambers;
The earth is satisfied with the fruit of Your works.
He causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
And vegetation for the service of man,
That he may bring forth food from the earth,
And wine that makes glad the heart of man,
Oil to make his face shine,
And bread which strengthens man’s heart.


Another particularly strong verse on this topic is Prov 16:33 (NAS), "The lot is cast in the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.”

He controls the outcome of the roll of a die.

Eph. 1:11 says that God works all things according to the counsel of His will (note the present tense).

God is the cause in the sense that he is the one who necessitates or determines what will happen in natural processes. I am also saying that he has an active role in this, beyond just "winding up" the "celestial clock" as it were. I would also say that His role goes beyond maintaining the properties of physical entities, because I think the cited verses are stronger than that.

If we are speaking of "cause" in the sense of correlation between events, or in the sense that I can predict a second event when I see a first event, then I have no problem saying that the rock caused the window to break, for example. However, I understand, while I am saying that, that I really do not mean that the rock has any power of its own to cause an event. The arrival of the rock at the window does not sufficiently explain the breaking of the window.

Thanks again for your input. :D

Sincerely,

Bill Green


Gidday Bill,


While I disagree with your theology, I don’t know if I can disagree with your overall intent too much.

Let me explain – at the risk of causing some offence.

It does not bother me if people see that God is behind every material process. Such issues as the existence or otherwise of God are stuff for a glass of wine around the camp fire.

What does bother me are the attempts by Biblical literalists (YEC/OEC) to introduce a very, very sloppy science and a lousy theology into the school classroom.

On another web many of us, both theist (conservative and liberal Christian) and atheist agree that YEC/OEC is bonkers. I was arguing with one YEC that he cannot admit God into some natural scenarios but remove him in others – without having a justification for doing so. And it was implicit in my wording that, since God does not exist – how could he be introduced anyway? A Christian (scientist) pointed out that I was wrong. The YEC was bonkers not because God could not be introduced, but rather the YEC had no way of knowing when to leave God out.

Both the theist and my self accept evolution (micro and macro), Big Bang cosmology, ancient earth etc.

Essentially I had no problems with what that person was arguing. His attitude to science was spot on. It is just that we disagreed theologically. His science was the same as mine. His philosophy of science was more or less the same as mine.


So I guess I am asking:-

1) Are you YEC/OEC?
2) Are you a theistic naturalist?
3) Are you something else again?

If 1) then I care to argue with you :-). If 2) then I do not care – and good on you. If 3) then I do not know.


Regards, Roland

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