Teaching of creationism and its religous overtones

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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otseng
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Teaching of creationism and its religous overtones

Post #1

Post by otseng »

In the Politics and the teaching of creationism, it has been mentioned that creationism should not be taught as a science class because of its religious overtones.

Jose:

First, the CM does have religious background, and, seemingly, a particular religious background at that. Second--and this is directed at hannahjoy's comment below--the biblical CM is woven into our culture pretty deeply. We can refer to it without even mentioning it by name.

However, the Creation Model itself is based upon religion. It is not a generic model that fits with all religions, but is specific to a relative few. As I see it, if we attempt to eliminate all bias toward any particular religion, and thus teach creationism in a religiously-neutral way, then we will have only a very small statement to make: "maybe, instead of natural processes, a supernatural being created everything." If we invoke timing of the creation event, or locations of events, or the Flood, we necessarily invoke a particular religious viewpoint. [I might summarize this by saying that I've been attempting to show (perhaps with limited success) that creationism is, by definition, religious interpretation.]


Also, it was touched upon in the Judge: Evolution stickers unconstitutional thread.

bernee51:

What is the original (only?) source of the christian creation theory?
What is the supposed word of god?
What is the basis of the christian religion?

Yep - the bible.

The remaining question - is it a religious or scientific text?

Seems to me to be pretty well religious, but YMMV.


So, for discussion:
Should creationism not be allowed to be taught as a science in public schools because of its religious overtones?

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Post #11

Post by mrmufin »

Jose wrote:
mrmufin wrote:No; given the limited resources and time in most public schools, creationism probably wouldn't warrant presentation, even if it was scientific.
I dunno...it seems to me that if there were scientific support, we might very well want to discuss it. The hooker is that the data happen to support evolution.
You've got a valid point; I was speaking mainly to the "fringeness" of the theory, and trying to maintain a distinction between discussion of a theory and presentation of a fringe theory as a commonly held position. As I was typing, I kept wondering, "What if a student asks about ID in a discussion or Q&A session in science class? How should a teacher respond? Does the fact that it's a fringe theory matter?"

I was also thinking outside biology and into other sciences. While it may be worthy to discuss certain subjects in modern science (M-theory, ekpyrotic cosmologicall model, etc.), it may be worthwhile to present the degree of support for a concept within the scientific community. The sciences are huge and ever-expanding subjects and their place in the public schools comes with very real time and budgetary constraints. Right or wrong, fringe theories should probably be presented as such.

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mrmufin

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Post #12

Post by youngborean »

Without oversimpifying the discussion. If creationism is a proposed story of how things began, how is telling that story any different or less religious then the biogenesis stories that are told in schools? They too are told with little reproducible evidence for their existence. They are told with faith that the body of evolution is true and that because it is true an explanation must exist that looks something like this. Biogenesis is highly theoretical and has not in any way been reproduced. And all this supposedly comes from some sort of deity called the Big Bang. Why does he have to be so Big? :D Should we just stay away from all stories and stick to data? Then we could let students come up with there own interpretation of data including fossils, half life data, geology. What would be wrong with allowing for reinterpretation rather than teaching theories? To me, it would be more advantageous to start from scratch with students, rather then tell them to assume something is right. If they come to the same conclusion, then we have established science by reproducibility. And everyone could be happy. I'll propose a new question.

If we were to teach all of the data without ever mentioning biogenesis or teaching the theory of evolution, would students inherently decide that species have evolved from nothing to their present state? The answer should be yes if the theory is that much different from Creationism.

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Post #13

Post by Dilettante »

No, creationism should not be taught in the science classroom. Nor should Intelligent Design. Those could be taught in comparative religion classes or philosophy, however, along with other viewpoints.

Even as fringe theories, giving them equal time would take too much time and perhaps detract from teaching well-established scientific theories.

What should be taught is that evolution does not necessarily imply that:

1. God does not exist
2. Natural selection could not have been designed by God.

An either-or approach should always be denounced as a false dilemma. as Robert Carroll has written, "the possibilities may not be endless, but they are certainly greater than the two considered by ID defenders."

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Post #14

Post by aprilannies »

youngborean wrote: Then we could let students come up with there own interpretation of data including fossils, half life data, geology. What would be wrong with allowing for reinterpretation rather than teaching theories? To me, it would be more advantageous to start from scratch with students, rather then tell them to assume something is right. If they come to the same conclusion, then we have established science by reproducibility. And everyone could be happy. I'll propose a new question.

If we were to teach all of the data without ever mentioning biogenesis or teaching the theory of evolution, would students inherently decide that species have evolved from nothing to their present state? The answer should be yes if the theory is that much different from Creationism.
This is an unrealistic model for education. Students on lets say... the sixth or seventh grade level, on average, do NOT possess the capabilities to come to the conclusion of evolution because they lack the necessary education to reach such conclusions. That's like saying, lets give this 10th grade physics class all the necessary data and see if they come up with the theory of relativity... it doesn't make sense.

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Post #15

Post by juliod »

he sixth or seventh grade level, on average, do NOT possess the capabilities to come to the conclusion of evolution because they lack the necessary education to reach such conclusions.
Oh, I don't know about that. Obviosuly lab excercises need to be tailored to the appropriate part of the K-12 range, but I don't think there is any need to teach-down to students.

I think an 5-7 grader could easily be taught to plate out bacteria and see how selection works with antibiotic resistance, etc.

Of course, the thing to keep in mind is that science is the one educational field where we can allow students to prove the basic principles for themselves.

Do divinity schools have prayer labs where students can influence the toss of a coin? No! Because it doesn't work. Ha!

DanZ

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Post #16

Post by aprilannies »

juliod wrote: Do divinity schools have prayer labs where students can influence the toss of a coin? No! Because it doesn't work. Ha!

DanZ
That's funny :)

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Post #17

Post by otseng »

Jose wrote:
mrmufin wrote:No; given the limited resources and time in most public schools, creationism probably wouldn't warrant presentation, even if it was scientific.

I dunno...it seems to me that if there were scientific support, we might very well want to discuss it. The hooker is that the data happen to support evolution.

Even if it was scientific it would not warrant presentation? Why not? I would surmise that the only reason is that it has religious overtones. Thus for the existence of this thread.
Jose wrote:
The question is whether there is any possible way to present it scientifically...we have several threads on this general topic, looking at various of the support-for-Genesis ideas (two Flood threads, one for the Grand Canyon, one for fossil footprints, one for Polonium Haloes). If creation is real, and the biblical account as valid as its supporters say it is, then these threads should be places where the evidence can be put forward. If it can't be done here, there's no validity in moving it into the science classroom.

Yes, many threads exist on treating the CM in a scientific manner. If one has arguments whether it is scientific or not, please visit these threads. The constant accusation that the CM is not scientific indicates that a review of these threads is required. In all of these threads (and others), no one has challenged me on being unscientific and resorting to faith or the Bible.
bernee51 wrote:
I guess this begs the question...which version of creationism do you want to teach?

Whichever version holds up to scientific scrutiny.

juliod wrote:
Creationism is religion.

bernee51 wrote:
creationism is religion

Bernee51, I thought you stated, "You are correct, perhaps creationism in and of itself is not a religion"?

There is no dispute that the CM has religious overtones, but that does not mean it is a religion. Just because something has religious implications does not make it a religion. If one does think that creationism is a religion, please start a new thread to prove your case.
bdbthinker wrote:
1. Creationism is a biblical based hypothesis. Church and state should be seperate per the establisment clause in the First Ammendment. This keeps all of our schools fair for every person regardless of their religion (or lack thereof).

This is addressed in Politics and the teaching of creationism .
mrmufin wrote:
otseng wrote:Should creationism not be allowed to be taught as a science in public schools because of its religious overtones?
No. It should not be taught as science because it has no scientific merit.

Are you saying that everything I have posted on C vs E has no scientific merit? (And please speak freely even though I do have admin powers. ;) )

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Post #18

Post by Jose »

aprilannies wrote:
youngborean wrote:Then we could let students come up with there own interpretation of data including fossils, half life data, geology. What would be wrong with allowing for reinterpretation rather than teaching theories? To me, it would be more advantageous to start from scratch with students, rather then tell them to assume something is right. If they come to the same conclusion, then we have established science by reproducibility. And everyone could be happy. I'll propose a new question.

If we were to teach all of the data without ever mentioning biogenesis or teaching the theory of evolution, would students inherently decide that species have evolved from nothing to their present state? The answer should be yes if the theory is that much different from Creationism.
This is an unrealistic model for education. Students on lets say... the sixth or seventh grade level, on average, do NOT possess the capabilities to come to the conclusion of evolution because they lack the necessary education to reach such conclusions. That's like saying, lets give this 10th grade physics class all the necessary data and see if they come up with the theory of relativity... it doesn't make sense.
It is partly unrealistic, and partly essential. There has been a push for some years to teach science more realistically. As you know, science is not memorizing things that people tell you. It's a process of investigation, data collection, and data interpretation. The "facts" are just the "current best interpretation." It's very hard to move science education in this direction, partly because many science teachers have themselves been taught that science is just memorizing facts. Still, it is essential that we re-work science teaching. Evolution is one area where it is clear that we need to do so.

We can't expect students to come up with the full theory of evolution, and a good model for the chemistry that eventually coalesced as Life. There just isn't time to give them all of the data. We're talking about 150 years' worth of accumulated findings in biology, chemistry, geology, and the various sub-fields of each. There's one heck of a lot of information. So, you're right that students don't have the background or scientific sophistication to handle it all.

They can, however, handle portions of it. I agree with juliod that young students can use microbiological techniques to develop an understanding of mutation--even if they have not yet developed the complete "mental movie" that they need to understand the molecular mechanics behind DNA changes altering proteins, altering phenotypes.

9th graders, certainly, can handle the basic molecular biology (we do teach it then, after all), and can therefore put together an answer to the simple question of: "if mutations occur at some low rate, and cannot be prevented, then what will happen to a gene as it is passed from parents to offspring, generation after generation after generation?"

They can also handle the information I discussed here. If we look at DNA similarities among organisms, we can build a diagram to illustrate them. What are the likely events that can have produced this pattern?

It might be more difficult to provide data, and have them interpret it, for the mechanism of mutation causing morphological change (since little is taught about embryology, or of the roles of developmental control genes in pattern formation). It might also be tricky to work with radiometric dating. We'd be dealing with half-lives and exponential decay, rather than mere algebra, which is hard enough for many of them. We'd also have the difficulty of sample contamination...how do the students know that the samples were collected correctly, and analyzed properly? Still, we could give them a table showing the data and the results of the calculations for a gazillion samples, and let them derive inferences from the pre-worked calculations.

But where do we stop? Biology I must, by law, cover vast territory. How much time can be devoted to any one subject? As you said, this is a major constraint. I think the solution is to develop some data collection/interpretation projects to ensure that the scientific methodology is understood (and practiced), and blend this with some "direct instruction" (which is the new euphemism for boring lectures). There is much to do, and we can all participate.
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Post #19

Post by aprilannies »

Jose wrote:
They can, however, handle portions of it. I agree with juliod that young students can use microbiological techniques to develop an understanding of mutation--even if they have not yet developed the complete "mental movie" that they need to understand the molecular mechanics behind DNA changes altering proteins, altering phenotypes.

9th graders, certainly, can handle the basic molecular biology (we do teach it then, after all), and can therefore put together an answer to the simple question of: "if mutations occur at some low rate, and cannot be prevented, then what will happen to a gene as it is passed from parents to offspring, generation after generation after generation?"

...

But where do we stop? Biology I must, by law, cover vast territory. How much time can be devoted to any one subject? As you said, this is a major constraint. I think the solution is to develop some data collection/interpretation projects to ensure that the scientific methodology is understood (and practiced), and blend this with some "direct instruction" (which is the new euphemism for boring lectures). There is much to do, and we can all participate.
I agree with this, and I would venture to say that it is something that is happening in public schools today, at least at the high school level. I wasn't thinking of the lab setting until Juliod gave a specific example. Thanks. :)

Most physics and chemistry classes come with matching 'labs'. This is where the instruction on how to follow scientific method and draw conclusions is taught. I don't think that there is enough of this going on, due partially as you said to time constraints, but more importantly due to bad budgeting in the educational systems.

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Post #20

Post by gluadys »

aprilannies wrote: ...

I agree with this, and I would venture to say that it is something that is happening in public schools today, at least at the high school level. I wasn't thinking of the lab setting until Juliod gave a specific example. Thanks. :)

These are some samples of lessons for use in junior high and high school today. There are lots of hands-on activities to help students understand the concepts.

http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/lessons/mol.bio.html

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/

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