Dubya in Hell?

[juliod]

Assuming that the general christian view of heaven and hell were true...

If you were Dubya, would you be worried about Judgement Day?

OK, we have the war mongering thing. The capital punishment thing. The drug and alcohol thing.

But I think the biggest worry is the obscene wealth thing. I mean the bible does say that it easier for a camel to pass through "the eye of the needle" than for a rich person to enter the "kingdom of heaven". Sounds ominous. And even if you accept that this is metaphorical, that "eye of the needle" is a device for livestock control, you are still left with a damning (pun) message. There are apparently special barriers keeping the rich out of heaven.

It's just part of the general issue with religious conservatives. They've adopted christianity, but ignore it's doctrine. It seems that the only doctrine they accept is that god wants them to hate homosexuals.

So, if you were in Dubya's shoes, and apparently a true christian, wouldn't you be terrified?

DanZ

[juliod]

You do realize that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. Not an American city. Yet, FDR went hog wild on the war thing.

Yes, but he didn't invade Canada did he?

BTW, how do you think Jesus felt about war to oppose Japanese expansionism in the Pacific?

Yes, Jesus is against war.

Halleluja! I'm glad to see you coming around to the liberal side.

By why is OK for Allah to kill the crap out of anyone his followers deem an abomination or insult to Islam the religion of peace?

No one has made that claim. If christianity is true I expect all the islamic terrorists to be tortured forever in hell. In fact, if Islam is true I expect the same thing. How do you think Jesus views Islamic violence?

Just once I'd like to see one anti-war demonstration outside of any Muslim country consulate held by the same Libs that hate America so badly.

Which Muslim country would you want us to picket? Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan, the three worst of the Islamic states, are US allies. None of them are making war on us.

But it is the height of hypocrisy to chide Bush on war if it is coming from a peace position and not applaud him on his stand against abortion.

According to the bible, abortion isn't wrong.

You don't seem to have internalized that point. Maybe we should start a thread on it.

DanZ

[AlAyeti]

You do realize that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. Not an American city. Yet, FDR went hog wild on the war thing.


Yes, but he didn't invade Canada did he?

So you agree war is OK if it isn't on the Canadians?

BTW, how do you think Jesus felt about war to oppose Japanese expansionism in the Pacific?

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Yes, Jesus is against war.


Halleluja! I'm glad to see you coming around to the liberal side.

I see Biblical truths. Please come around on them in regards to marriage and family as man-woman-children. Then you will have reached real Christianty.

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By why is OK for Allah to kill the crap out of anyone his followers deem an abomination or insult to Islam the religion of peace?


No one has made that claim. If christianity is true I expect all the islamic terrorists to be tortured forever in hell. In fact, if Islam is true I expect the same thing. How do you think Jesus views Islamic violence?

That is hypocrisy even from a Liberal view. My liberalism is always Biblically accurate. Islam is a false religion if, the Bible is the guide. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus was crucified and was raised again. Islam denies this. Jesus has already spoken on Islam.

The world shoud finally speak out against Islamic murderous ideolgy as well.

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Just once I'd like to see one anti-war demonstration outside of any Muslim country consulate held by the same Libs that hate America so badly.


Which Muslim country would you want us to picket? Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan, the three worst of the Islamic states, are US allies. None of them are making war on us.

Ah, secualrists turning a blind eye to a secular relationship between countries. How hypocritical.

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But it is the height of hypocrisy to chide Bush on war if it is coming from a peace position and not applaud him on his stand against abortion.


According to the bible, abortion isn't wrong.

You don't seem to have internalized that point. Maybe we should start a thread on it.

I have given you a sound Bible lesson. You fail to internalize the point that if you have a problem with God wiping out evil and perverse peoples from in front of the Israelites, then you should be the first person in line picketing abortion mills.

And after you have ended abortion for convenience, I'll be expecting you to be picketing those Islamic countires.

[palmera]

I see Biblical truths. Please come around on them in regards to marriage and family as man-woman-children. Then you will have reached real Christianty.

Don't you see how arrogant and erroneous this is? First, if you were really so wise you wouldn't be saying anything like this. Secondly, you just defined what it means to be christian by how one views marriage!

Jesus has already spoken on Islam.

What?

The world shoud finally speak out against Islamic murderous ideolgy as well.

This sort of ignorance makes me furious! Islam is a peaceful and beautiful religion. You're ignorantly defining a religion by it's extremist. If you defined Christianity the same way you'd get the most racist, hateful, monstrocity I can imagine. Please refrain from making comments like these.

[AlAyeti]

This sort of ignorance makes me furious! Islam is a peaceful and beautiful religion. You're ignorantly defining a religion by it's extremist. If you defined Christianity the same way you'd get the most racist, hateful, monstrocity I can imagine. Please refrain from making comments like these.

Defining a religion by arrogance? Then what in the h-ll would you call what Christians have to endure? It has been hundreds of years since any "Christian nation" has waged war on anyone. I think the last time they did was in response to Muslims killing all of the Christian inhabitants of Jerusalem and taking control of that city . . . in the name of the religion of peace.

You do have a television and newspapers where you live don't you? They are still at it. "Allah akbar" was what the 9-11 terrorists (all Muslims) shouted as the planes they had stolen slammed into the World Trade Center towers.

Can you please tell me at what point in history the Muslims have not be at war? And please leave out the time when they subjugated every non-Muslim in those Islamic countires. Peace at the cost of silencing any voice not Muslim is hardly peace.

Christian women can have jobs can walk around with their heads uncovered and can look at other men in the eyes as they walk and work.

Have you ever heard of Sharia law? Where on earth is Islam and peaceful and beautifully practiced religion? Afghanistan? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Syria? Lebenon? Iraq? Palestine? Get the picture? Please help me with my arrogance? Point out one Islamic country where women have freedom? Where multiple religions flourish and are allowed to reach the masses?

man you need to do some research.

And there is a big difference between Christian Missionaries and Islamic Jihad warriors coming into African villages. A good friend of mine is from Nigeria. He fled that country so that the Muslims would not (again) come into his town and shoot the non-Muslims. How many Christian missionaries use AK-47's to spread the religion of peace?

You need to get a hold of a Koran and read it yourself. Your views are simply stagering to observe.

Now Dubya? Has even once tried to send Christian missionaries to help out in Iraq? Heck, the man gets slammed when he says God Bless America as an act of intolerance and insult towards those that practice the religion of peace.

Please put my assertions to the test. Please.

[AlAyeti]

Don't you see how arrogant and erroneous this is? First, if you were really so wise you wouldn't be saying anything like this. Secondly, you just defined what it means to be christian by how one views marriage!

No, no, no. You have good ideas about Biblical truth, you just need to be more accurate on all issues. When Jesus defined what is destroyed in a divorce, He laid out an unmistakeable definition of WHAT marriage is.

Man, woman, children. 100% Biblical.

Also 100% biological.

[Cathar1950]

Harvey1 wrote:

However, let me ask you the same question, Juliod. Do you think that anything matters? Soon enough the universe will begin expanding at an infinite speed, galaxies will fly apart, then solar systems will be torn away from their suns, then moons will be torn away from their planets, planets will be torn to pieces, and then atoms will be torn away into elementary particles, quarks will be torn away from their confinement, and finally the laws of physics will completely breakdown. What does it matter? Sheez, if I were an atheist, I wouldn't even bother getting out of bed.

Come on I don't belive the only joy in life is because I am going to die and go to heaven. If you can't enjoy this life unless your going to live forever, what makes you think you will enjoy the next?

[AlAyeti]

Come on I don't belive the only joy in life is because I am going to die and go to heaven. If you can't enjoy this life unless your going to live forever, what makes you think you will enjoy the next?

Joy of life and living is one big reason to see the Christians as loving this life. The single most beautiful thing about Jewish faith after their God and Messiah, is their unbridled joy of living life. Even with so much adversity all around them.

Sukkot, Shavuot, Passover, all find defintion in the Messiah and celebration is a gift of remembrance, as well as promise.

Jesus is celebration. Not many Christians are unhappy and it seems from observing how many Churches are still seating people, in an age where being a Christian is seen as being a hate monger, there is a lot of singing and dancing church and out of it.

Contemporary Christian Music is a major success even in the youth market. Not bad for a group of people so denigrated on network television and print media that you would think they would be the largest group of people on Prozac.

But that dubious honor belongs to others.

Heaven can wait and its promise is assured. That should make anyone delerious (the name of a hugely successful Christian band) in this life to live it as long and as joyous as possibble.

[palmera]

Defining a religion by arrogance?

That's not what I said. I pointed out that you were defining Islam (as you did in your last response) by it's extremists. Not only that you've further defined Islam by the power structures in the middle east which proclaim themselves to be Islam; also, you've somehow distanced Christianity from American action in war. America is a Christian nation, run by Christians.... Nazi Germany was also a Christian nation.

It has been hundreds of years since any "Christian nation" has waged war on anyone. I think the last time they did was in response to Muslims killing all of the Christian inhabitants of Jerusalem and taking control of that city . . . in the name of the religion of peace.

Refer to what I said above. Again, America is a Christian nation- Christianity imbues our national songs, poetry, and how we talk about America. Further you're incorrect to argue that no Christian nation has waged war for hundreds of years. America, a Christian nation, is in war right now. Nazi Germany was 98% Christian during the holocaust and WWII... as were the other Western countries in WWII.

You do have a television and newspapers where you live don't you? They are still at it. "Allah akbar" was what the 9-11 terrorists (all Muslims) shouted as the planes they had stolen slammed into the World Trade Center towers.

In the same way that Western countries for centuries have gone into battle yelling "for God and country." Extremists are a part of every religion, but that doesn't mean they define what the religion is, or what the scripture points to as truth, or as divine.

Can you please tell me at what point in history the Muslims have not be at war? And please leave out the time when they subjugated every non-Muslim in those Islamic countires. Peace at the cost of silencing any voice not Muslim is hardly peace.

There are many points in history when Muslims have not been in war.... can you tell me what never-ending war they've been, and are a part of. I was unaware that they had the resources to be at war continually for thousands of years.

Have you ever heard of Sharia law? Where on earth is Islam and peaceful and beautifully practiced religion? Afghanistan? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Syria? Lebenon? Iraq? Palestine? Get the picture? Please help me with my arrogance? Point out one Islamic country where women have freedom? Where multiple religions flourish and are allowed to reach the masses?

There are traditional, (and in some cases what once were practical) customs in the Middle East which have become structures and cultural paradigms which subject and oppress women. No one is denying that. But again, this does not define what Islam is, the same way our discriminatory practices in the west throughout history do not define what Christianity is.

Heck, the man gets slammed when he says God Bless America as an act of intolerance and insult towards those that practice the religion of peace.

Slammed by who? Apparently it must be rampant for you to assert it so, yet Bush continues to ask God's blessing for America in nearly every public speech he gives addressing the War and this nation as a world leader.

Al, the problem I see with your views on Islam is that you define what Islam is through extremists, and the social structures of power which run nations made up mostly of Islamic people. Problems you see with Islam in practice today(of which Christianity also does and has had many) you refer to as necessarily normative rather than problems in need of address by those who would call themselves Islamic. You refuse to define Christianity this same way and are thus hipocritical. You either don't know enough about what your talking about, or you simply refuse to attend to the biases you bring forth in your representations of Christianity and Islam. You're so quick to label Islam a religion full of terrorists and oppressors of women, not only failing to attend to the socio-political realities, but also, not addressing the complex reality that is Islamic faith.

[AlAyeti]

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Defining a religion by arrogance?


That's not what I said. I pointed out that you were defining Islam (as you did in your last response) by it's extremists. Not only that you've further defined Islam by the power structures in the middle east which proclaim themselves to be Islam; also, you've somehow distanced Christianity from American action in war. America is a Christian nation, run by Christians.... Nazi Germany was also a Christian nation.

I define Islam by the Koran and the actions of Mohammad. Neither the Koran or Mohammad violated its teachings. The power structures in the Middle East are Islamic and, Intolerant of non-Muslims. Which is OK in the Koran.

The Nazi's violated every teaching of Jesus. I'm assuming that the Christians that fought against Nazi Germany speaks for itself.

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It has been hundreds of years since any "Christian nation" has waged war on anyone. I think the last time they did was in response to Muslims killing all of the Christian inhabitants of Jerusalem and taking control of that city . . . in the name of the religion of peace. 
 
Refer to what I said above. Again, America is a Christian nation- Christianity imbues our national songs, poetry, and how we talk about America. Further you're incorrect to argue that no Christian nation has waged war for hundreds of years. America, a Christian nation, is in war right now. Nazi Germany was 98% Christian during the holocaust and WWII... as were the other Western countries in WWII.

America is a secular nation. Please refer to the Constitution or call the ACLU. Arab countries refer to themselves as Islamic countries. Please show me where our Congress, or Senate or President has freaked out when someone curses the Bible?

Please judge nazi Germany by its own religious document. If indeed they were Christians than this is an easy task. The Rule Book for Christianity is called the Gospels. I'll accept any decision you make on their guilt.

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You do have a television and newspapers where you live don't you? They are still at it. "Allah akbar" was what the 9-11 terrorists (all Muslims) shouted as the planes they had stolen slammed into the World Trade Center towers.

In the same way that Western countries for centuries have gone into battle yelling "for God and country." Extremists are a part of every religion, but that doesn't mean they define what the religion is, or what the scripture points to as truth, or as divine.

Any Christians beheading anyone on the Internet? Or, any secualr Americans? The stuff Christians are doing for God and Country have freed the Muslim Iraqi's. Your comparison is lacking any crediblity. The actions of Christian-Americans prove them to be a far finer than what is brought to us from the Koran.

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Can you please tell me at what point in history the Muslims have not be at war? And please leave out the time when they subjugated every non-Muslim in those Islamic countires. Peace at the cost of silencing any voice not Muslim is hardly peace.

There are many points in history when Muslims have not been in war.... can you tell me what never-ending war they've been, and are a part of. I was unaware that they had the resources to be at war continually for thousands of years.

Islamic peace? Let's see:

Of course the rise of Islam in the seventh century is rightly considered a great turning point in Arab history, and that of the whole Mediterranean. For the Jews it meant an improvement in some ways over the previous Roman and Byzantine oppression. For instance, Jews were again allowed to live in Jerusalem. But in other ways, their status worsened. Muslim oppression worsened as time went on. Jews had to pay severe taxes as dhimmis, members of the inferior class of non-Muslims whose toleration in a state of humiliation was decreed by the Quran. Christians shared the dhimmi status with the Jews, while slaves were imported to the Muslim Arab domain from distant climes, from Africa, Europe, and central Asia.

Indeed, the Arabs may be called "equal opportunity enslavers," since their slaves could be of any color. Yet, typically slaves were unbelievers, kaffirs in Arabic. The European colonizers in Africa borrowed the name kaffir from the Arabs, applying it to the native black Africans, unbelievers in the eyes of both Christians and Muslims.

While European slavers took slaves from the west coast of Africa after Portugal opened it as a sea route to the Orient, Arab slave traders took slaves from the east coast and across the Sahara. And the Arabs were involved in the Black slave trade earlier and later. Indeed Arabs continued to ship slaves through Zanzibar, an island off the coast, now part of Tanzania, until the British suppressed the trade there in 1873.

Nor were the Arabs innocent in relation to the Europeans even long after the Battle of Poitiers (732), nor after the Muslim armies had driven out the Crusaders and after Christian Spain had driven the Arabs out of Granada in 1492. Pirate raids from one side of the Mediterranean to the other were a frequent feature of life. They were conducted with ferocity and cruelty by both camps. The Arab raids kept broad coastal regions of Spain and Italy depopulated, underdeveloped and in decay for centuries.

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Have you ever heard of Sharia law? Where on earth is Islam and peaceful and beautifully practiced religion? Afghanistan? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Syria? Lebenon? Iraq? Palestine? Get the picture? Please help me with my arrogance? Point out one Islamic country where women have freedom? Where multiple religions flourish and are allowed to reach the masses?

There are traditional, (and in some cases what once were practical) customs in the Middle East which have become structures and cultural paradigms which subject and oppress women. No one is denying that. But again, this does not define what Islam is, the same way our discriminatory practices in the west throughout history do not define what Christianity is.

Uhh yeah.

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Heck, the man gets slammed when he says God Bless America as an act of intolerance and insult towards those that practice the religion of peace.

Slammed by who? Apparently it must be rampant for you to assert it so, yet Bush continues to ask God's blessing for America in nearly every public speech he gives addressing the War and this nation as a world leader.

You must listen to Air America, or, have ever heard of Bill Maher or Hollywood California or, the ACLU. Or, the Democrat party.

Al, the problem I see with your views on Islam is that you define what Islam is through extremists, and the social structures of power which run nations made up mostly of Islamic people. Problems you see with Islam in practice today(of which Christianity also does and has had many) you refer to as necessarily normative rather than problems in need of address by those who would call themselves Islamic.

You want me to apologize for seeing the facts? The religion has had how many years to improve itself? Bzzzz. Wrong answer. It is what it is. The Christians are feeding millions of non-Christians where the Muslims have shot to death those very poor and the Christians feeding and clothing them. Islam is judged by Muslims.

You refuse to define Christianity this same way and are thus hipocritical. You either don't know enough about what your talking about, or you simply refuse to attend to the biases you bring forth in your representations of Christianity and Islam.

The proof is is in the hole in New York City, and the hole where once sat a human head. Please let's keep comparing Christians to Muslims.

You're so quick to label Islam a religion full of terrorists and oppressors of women, not only failing to attend to the socio-political realities, but also, not addressing the complex reality that is Islamic faith.

That is simply unbelieveable. Quick to judge Islam? My views have been formed from its history. Mecca? Subjugated after slaughtering the inhabitants. Medina? Ditto? Jerusalem? Ditto? Egypt? Ditto? Mohammad? warrior or sacrificial lamb?

How many diverse and different religions were practiced in the middle east before Mohammad's little religion of peace convinced them to embrace good ol' Islam? We can start another thread if you'd like. Then again, their is real fear in dwelling on Islamic atrocities too long. Their form of debate leaves only one side able to rebut. hard to talk without a head.

Koran? Slay them where ever you find them? Or love your enemies and do good to those that persecute you?

Why and/or how did the Vikings become Christians? By the great warrior Christians that defeated them or through recognizing that the peace inherent in that religion was something to embrace?
Interesting little comparison and very appropriate considering our wanderings off topic.