Dubya in Hell?

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:30 pm

Assuming that the general christian view of heaven and hell were true...

If you were Dubya, would you be worried about Judgement Day?

OK, we have the war mongering thing. The capital punishment thing. The drug and alcohol thing.

But I think the biggest worry is the obscene wealth thing. I mean the bible does say that it easier for a camel to pass through "the eye of the needle" than for a rich person to enter the "kingdom of heaven". Sounds ominous. And even if you accept that this is metaphorical, that "eye of the needle" is a device for livestock control, you are still left with a damning (pun) message. There are apparently special barriers keeping the rich out of heaven.

It's just part of the general issue with religious conservatives. They've adopted christianity, but ignore it's doctrine. It seems that the only doctrine they accept is that god wants them to hate homosexuals.

So, if you were in Dubya's shoes, and apparently a true christian, wouldn't you be terrified?

DanZ

youngborean · Post by **youngborean** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:25 pm

Well his intentions matter towards the principles that he is fighting for. If he is protecting the innocent of Iraq who have been abused and murdered by Saddam solely for their benefit and freedom, then this is an admirable intention. Though the action itself can support opportunities for corruption. You bring out a good point about Jesus. He wasn't to concerned in general to the affairs of men, so there was not a lot of specifics about these types of men. I would err on the side of caution with any political leader being a disciple of Jesus, because they generally seem to be so consumed with what men think of them. But God knows who loves him, and he has clearly raised certain people up to carry out his judgement. This can't say anything about the individual, only his or her role in God's providence.

AlAyeti · Post by **AlAyeti** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:30 am

So YHWH should be eradicated himself, since he slaughtered infants in Hosea 13?

God judged the people for their actions and beliefs. A sovereign God can act sovereignly.

Anyway, this is a side issue. Do you have an opinion on Bush's policies vis-a-vis christianity?

The man cannot even give great social service organizations credit and financial aid in the Faith-based initiative without the cry of it from secularists. He says Jesus a few times and the Liberals and Humanists freak out!

With the Iraq war, it was a secular President committing secular troops to fight a war in Iraq. Having problems with Bush's actions in Iraq is having issues with secularism.

Now that is a good start. But . . .

If Bush could have ended the Middle East crisis with Christian Missionaries the secularists would not have allowed him to do it. The ACLU would have sued him in a second.

The question for this post? Christian Secularist in Hell?

palmera · Post by **palmera** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:13 pm

With the Iraq war, it was a secular President committing secular troops to fight a war in Iraq. Having problems with Bush's actions in Iraq is having issues with secularism.

What??? No. Having a problem with Bush's actions in Iraq is just that- a problem with Bush, not with secularism. Secularism has nothing to do with the war in Iraq. The war in Iraq is about power and how it's used. The U.S. for years didn't want Hussein in power and finally built enough smoking mirrors to go to war to take him out of power- not because he wasn't a good leader, not because he murdered his own people, but because he wasn't cooperating with U.S policies in the Middle East.

The man cannot even give great social service organizations credit and financial aid in the Faith-based initiative without the cry of it from secularists.

That's because giving money solely to one faith based initiative is close to breaking constitutional law. And of all people- the president!

The question for this post? Christian Secularist in Hell?

Bush in hell? no- because there's no such thing. If there were a hell, and he a Christian, then it's not for us to decide. As far as Christian secularists in hell.... give me a break. I'd much rather err on the side of inclusion, peace, tolerance, advocacy for human dignity in the search for truth (wherever that might take one religiously) than expect rewards through my Constantinian christian practices of exclusion and moral superiority.

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:52 pm

With the Iraq war, it was a secular President committing secular troops to fight a war in Iraq. Having problems with Bush's actions in Iraq is having issues with secularism.

Right. That's my question. How do you think a secular war-fighter will be viewed by Jesus? Favorably or unfavorably?

My view is that if christianity is true then Dubya will be tortured in hell through all eternity. Do I take it that you agree?

Side issue:

God judged the people for their actions and beliefs. A sovereign God can act sovereignly.

What "actions and beliefs" did the unborn of Hosea 13 do/hold?

DanZ

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:54 pm

If there were a hell, and he a Christian, then it's not for us to decide.

Decide, no. But it is possible to form an opinion, isn't it? If you were Dubya and you became convinced that christianity was true, how would you feel?

DanZ

palmera · Post by **palmera** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:57 pm

Decide, no. But it is possible to form an opinion, isn't it? If you were Dubya and you became convinced that christianity was true, how would you feel?

If I were Dubya, I'd think I was going to heaven. I spread democracy, fight for freedom, choose life, go to church, yada yada yada. If I were Dubya I'd fail to see the irrisposibilities of my actions. Now, if I were me, and did those things.... yeah, I'd take up a religion like Buddhism to learn to cultivate compassion for all life, cultivate discipline through meditation, etc.

AlAyeti · Post by **AlAyeti** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:25 pm

Now, if I were me, and did those things.... yeah, I'd take up a religion like Buddhism to learn to cultivate compassion for all life, cultivate discipline through meditation, etc.

Good premise. But, what if a tiny little Buddhist country, didn't practice what it believed and were to leave their little Island and attack other soveriegn nations and slaughter the inhabitants and take contorl of those soveriegn countries?

What about not having compassion for American sailors in a Hawaii port?

What kind of discipline would need to be cultivated by whom?

What would Franklin D. Roosevelt do?

palmera · Post by **palmera** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:43 pm

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're getting at.

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:01 pm

I'm not quite sure I understand what you're getting at.

Allow me to translate. Here's Al's argument:

1) I took your statement about Buddhism to be an attack on Bush.

2) Japan once made war on the US.

3) Therefore it is impossible for Bush to do anything wrong.

4) Therefore your attack on him is an outrageous lie.

Don't mind Al. He's still trying to figure out if the Jesus described in the bible approves or disapproves of secular war. It seems to depend on whether the protagonist is a conservative American.

DanZ

AlAyeti · Post by **AlAyeti** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:17 pm

Dan, good job buddy.

Yes, Presidents and their administrations make decisions to send American troops to fight wars. It has nothing to do with their religious convictions. Otherwise, Christianity wouldn't be seperated from state.

You do realize that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. Not an American city. Yet, FDR went hog wild on the war thing.

Yes, Jesus is against war. By why is OK for Allah to kill the crap out of anyone his followers deem an abomination or insult to Islam the religion of peace?

Just once I'd like to see one anti-war demonstration outside of any Muslim country consulate held by the same Libs that hate America so badly.

But it is the height of hypocrisy to chide Bush on war if it is coming from a peace position and not applaud him on his stand against abortion. More people died last year in abortion mills than have fallen in combat.

Abortionists in hell?

Forgone conclusion I know.