Dubya in Hell?

[juliod]

Assuming that the general christian view of heaven and hell were true...

If you were Dubya, would you be worried about Judgement Day?

OK, we have the war mongering thing. The capital punishment thing. The drug and alcohol thing.

But I think the biggest worry is the obscene wealth thing. I mean the bible does say that it easier for a camel to pass through "the eye of the needle" than for a rich person to enter the "kingdom of heaven". Sounds ominous. And even if you accept that this is metaphorical, that "eye of the needle" is a device for livestock control, you are still left with a damning (pun) message. There are apparently special barriers keeping the rich out of heaven.

It's just part of the general issue with religious conservatives. They've adopted christianity, but ignore it's doctrine. It seems that the only doctrine they accept is that god wants them to hate homosexuals.

So, if you were in Dubya's shoes, and apparently a true christian, wouldn't you be terrified?

DanZ

[juliod]

Your views of picking and choosing Biblical truth is fascinating to watch.

You are again misunderstanding what I am trying to say. In this thread I am saying that Bush is not adhereing to biblical christian doctrine. This does not imply that I believe that doctrine to be true. Outside of this thread I generally do not use biblical quotes in arguments.

I have advanced several claims about Dubya:

1) That his accumulation of wealth is inconsistent with the ideal of christian poverty.

2) That warmongering is inconsistent with Jesus' advocacy of love.

3) That opposition to abortion is not a biblical example of morality.

You keep harping on about abortion as if it were even mentioned in the bible. What's the point?

BTW, you still mistake the significance of Hosea 13. It was not the Isrealites butchering the pregnant women. It was YHWH himself. The point being that according to the bible, killing innocent babies is consistent with the divine will.

DanZ

[AlAyeti]

You are again misunderstanding what I am trying to say. In this thread I am saying that Bush is not adhereing to biblical christian doctrine. This does not imply that I believe that doctrine to be true. Outside of this thread I generally do not use biblical quotes in arguments.

I have advanced several claims about Dubya:

1) That his accumulation of wealth is inconsistent with the ideal of christian poverty.

2) That warmongering is inconsistent with Jesus' advocacy of love.

3) That opposition to abortion is not a biblical example of morality.

You keep harping on about abortion as if it were even mentioned in the bible. What's the point?

BTW, you still mistake the significance of Hosea 13. It was not the Isrealites butchering the pregnant women. It was YHWH himself. The point being that according to the bible, killing innocent babies is consistent with the divine will.

Hosea 13 is horror unleashed on a disgusting and wilfully sinning people.

You are right in that God is in control. This is almost a perfect Biblical perspective on God judging a nation.

The sins of the Israelites caused them to lose their own children. Like a woman embracing the sin of abortion. The context is clear that sinful behavior brings on the death of children. God in Hosea is trying to convey salvation to them but only if they repent. This is far more than a prophecy. History indeed repeats itself. Americans and American Christians are just like the Israelites in Hosea. I'm thinking that reading the whole chapter in context will show the nature of sin and the condemnation of God because of it.

The loss of children was unimaginable to the Israelites as the promise of God is in children. Hosea 13 points out the nature of God's wrath. He is judging a people for their actions.

This text in context proves that actions do indeed bring consequences.

From the Tanakh, Jewish Publication Society:http://s90632679.onlinehome.us/tanakh/Hoshea-Hosea.html

Hosea13
1 When Ephraim spoke, there was trembling, he exalted himself in Israel; but when he became guilty through Baal, he died.
2 And now they sin more and more, and have made them molten images of their silver, according to their own understanding, even idols, all of them the work of the craftsmen; of them they say: 'They that sacrifice men kiss calves.'
3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the dew that early passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the wind out of the threshing-floor, and as the smoke out of the window.
4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt; and thou knowest no God but Me, and beside Me there is no saviour.
5 I did know thee in the wilderness, in the land of great drought.
6 When they were fed, they became full, they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten Me.
7 Therefore am I become unto them as a lion; as a leopard will I watch by the way;
8 I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the enclosure of their heart; and there will I devour them like a lioness; the wild beast shall tear them.
9 It is thy destruction, O Israel, that thou art against Me, against thy help.
10 Ho, now, thy king, that he may save thee in all thy cities! and thy judges, of whom thou saidst: 'Give me a king and princes!'
11 I give thee a king in Mine anger, and take him away in My wrath.
12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is laid up in store.
13 The throes of a travailing woman shall come upon him; he is an unwise son; for it is time he should not tarry in the place of the breaking forth of children.
14 Shall I ransom them from the power of the nether-world? Shall I redeem them from death? Ho, thy plagues, O death! Ho, thy destruction, O netherworld! Repentance be hid from Mine eyes!
15 For though he be fruitful among the reed-plants, an east wind shall come, the wind of the LORD coming up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up; he shall spoil the treasure of all precious vessels.
16 (14:1) Samaria shall bear her guilt, for she hath rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

This chapter could be the perfect place to see a connection to the USA. I believe that Europe is virtually written off but America has some hope left.

"Samaria shall bear her guilt."

Like a sexually promiscuous woman that has had an abortion the guilt is overwhelming when reality is grasped. The nation will suffer.

Hosea 13 is God judging a sinful people. Their guilt and the consequences of it are on them.

Christians are disliked because of this very comparison to God judging a sinful American nation that embraces abominations. Abortion is a symptom of a depraved condition.

///

1) That his accumulation of wealth is inconsistent with the ideal of christian poverty.

Where is this ideal of Christian poverty laid out in detail? The rich can be faithful followers and the poor can be scoundrels. And taking care of each other would be difficult if everyone was penniless.

This from a typical written diatribe from infidels.org, at the end of an article you could have written.

Peace and love are alleged to be the special characteristics of Christianity. Yet the whole history of Christian nations has been blurred by war and hate. Now and for the past thirty years the most civilized amongst Christian nations have been devoting enorihous sums and huge masses of men to the preparation for war. Torpedoes and explosive shells, one hundred ton guns and melinite, are by Christian rulers accounted better aids than faith in Jesus.

I've always admired how and why atheists know how Christianity should be practiced.

You may be right about George Bush but you also may be wrong. Maybe his heart is like that of Zacchaeus.

Warmongering is the history of mankind and especially the secular nation of the United States. No argument there. What if we elected people from the Salvation Army?

3) That opposition to abortion is not a biblical example of morality.

You are mistaken on number three and on the context of Hosea. It is a sinful people that bring calamity on themselves. There are too many examples of that happening in the OT to the Israelites.

Christians learned from Hosea. But, alas, a sinful nation will not heed the call to repent.

[juliod]

Hosea 13 is horror unleashed on a disgusting and wilfully sinning people.

a) What harm did worshipping Baal ever do?

b) Why did the punishment include the innocent women and children? They didn't kiss any calfs.

Anyway, Hosea 13 shows my point: the attitude of YWHW towards the unborn is not friendly. They can be killed on a whim and do not have individual rights to be born on their own.

The sins of the Israelites caused them to lose their own children.

Right. The unborn were not "Isrealites" (i.e. not yet alive in god's eye). The unborn had not sinned. If they were people then they would not have been punished too. Right? Or does god punish the innocent?

Like a woman embracing the sin of abortion.

Abortion isn't a sin in the bible.

Hosea 13 points out the nature of God's wrath. He is judging a people for their actions.

Right again. The "people" being punished were the fathers. The unborn babies are not "people". They are called "fruit" in other passages. It's so rewarding to see you coming around to the abortionist position.

Abortion is a symptom of a depraved condition.

Why isn't that mentioned in the bible?

Where is this ideal of Christian poverty laid out in detail?

It's all through the NT, isn't it? How about the poor woman who gives a small amount of money? She is held more worthy than the rich who give more. What about the storing up of treasure in heaven? Isn't that a Big Hint?

You've just been following the teachings of someone intent on worshipping the rich, rather than Jesus.

And taking care of each other would be difficult if everyone was penniless.

It really is inconceivable that a sociey could exist without money or proprty isn't it? Funny, because one is described in the NT.

I've always admired how and why atheists know how Christianity should be practiced.

We have one great advantage. We don't need the bible to be an echo-chamber of our own thoughts. So we can read what is actually written in the bible and not what we want it to say.

You may be right about George Bush but you also may be wrong

And what I've noticed is that people who tak a lot about morality suddenly go all agnostic when specific questions are raised. Why is it so hard to see that Bush is clearly unchristian?

Warmongering is the history of mankind and especially the secular nation of the United States. No argument there

Good. So how do you expect Jesus to view making war for secular political reasons? Favorable or unfavorable?

You are mistaken on number three and on the context of Hosea.

Hosea 13 is only one example of god's attitude to the unborn. Aside from that there is still no biblical case against abortion. None, zip, zilch, nada.

Opposing abortion is not an act of morality supported by the bible. So your conservative freinds are left with warmongering and favoring the rich over the poor. Clearly poor doctrine. If christianity is true I sure would rather be an atheist on judgement day than a conservative.

DanZ

[AlAyeti]

Isn't agnosticism literally the Christian actions of asking and praying to God?

You know very well that your handcrafted spin on Hosea promotes and proliferates deviance and sexual sins. Baal worship was just that. Sexual promiscuity in their worship was an abomination before the Israelite God.

You have opposing forces. One sin and sinning and the other told to wipe it off the face of the earth.

Now, is abortion the suicide and death of mother and child?

No.

Abortion is birth control designed to proliferate a culture strikingly similar to Canaanite politics.

Abortion for sexually promiscuity is indeed taught in the Bible as abominable practices of the peoples Israel was not to follow.

a) What harm did worshipping Baal ever do?

b) Why did the punishment include the innocent women and children? They didn't kiss any calfs.

Worshipping Baal developed the concept of abortion to promote sexual licentiousness. As well as whatever filth they practiced back then.

The punishment of those peoples worshipping other gods in the Bible was dealt with harshly by the directions of God to the Israelites.

Seems things don't change in the nature of man.

Right. The unborn were not "Isrealites" (i.e. not yet alive in god's eye). The unborn had not sinned. If they were people then they would not have been punished too. Right? Or does god punish the innocent?

The unborn Canaanites were Canaanites. Seems God did see them as persons.

It does seem that God executed judgment on innocent people. In Joshua a thiefs entire family was stoned along with him for what he did.

All of the Israelites suffered for the actions of some Israelites. as well.

Sounds like AIDS could be ended in similar fashion.

Abortion isn't a sin in the bible.

The actions of the Canaanites and the Molech worshippers in the judgment meted out on them by God would challenge this opinion.

Right again. The "people" being punished were the fathers. The unborn babies are not "people". They are called "fruit" in other passages. It's so rewarding to see you coming around to the abortionist position.

Your hypocrisy and error is showing like the underwear of a kid sagging. And your desperation.

Those unborn people were Canaanites. The fruit growing up to produce more Canaanites. Perfect logic though heart breaking.

I'm glad that you are coming around to seeing the validity of the unborn person as having an effect on future events.

Now go stop those abortion mills.

Ever seen a third trimester abortion? The one where the baby is pulled feet first from a mothers birth canal and a scissors is shoved into its skull and its brain is sucked out?

I'm sure God appreciates your compassion for the unborn. Well done good and faithful servant.

It is rewarding to know that Christians have allies in the "freethinkers."

We also don't want God to wipe out any more Canaanites either. They need to hear the Gospel.

Quote:
Abortion is a symptom of a depraved condition.


Why isn't that mentioned in the bible?

It certainly IS mentioned in the Bible. Look up Molech worship and read Ezekiel on Sodom's sins. Haughtiness, children suffering for the licentious lifestyle of parents is a fact and abortion is connected. Abortion has a factual history. Isn't that why Democrats want it safe and legal? Sacrificing the children for the well-being of the"parents" IS exactly what abortion is. We have the proof of today's world to find evidence. Human nature hasn't changed in just a few thousand years.

Gimme a break.

CPR isn't mentioned in the Bible either huh? Or, is it?

Where is this ideal of Christian poverty laid out in detail?

It's all through the NT, isn't it? How about the poor woman who gives a small amount of money? She is held more worthy than the rich who give more. What about the storing up of treasure in heaven? Isn't that a Big Hint?

You've just been following the teachings of someone intent on worshipping the rich, rather than Jesus.

When you're right your right. And when you're wrong you're wrong. Now I hope you vote for a Salvation Army candidate for political office. Also I'll start sending your wishes to both political parties to start implementing Christian teachings on American society.

Well done again.

Quote:
And taking care of each other would be difficult if everyone was penniless.


It really is inconceivable that a sociey could exist without money or proprty isn't it? Funny, because one is described in the NT

.

You're right again. Once people start to love God with all of their hearts and minds we'll see this worldwide. Christianity needs to be the law of the world. I couldn't agree with you more.

We have one great advantage. We don't need the bible to be an echo-chamber of our own thoughts. So we can read what is actually written in the bible and not what we want it to say.

Your righteousness is awesome. God has indeed written His laws in your heart.

By their "fruit" you will know them.

Welcome home brother.

And what I've noticed is that people who tak a lot about morality suddenly go all agnostic when specific questions are raised. Why is it so hard to see that Bush is clearly unchristian?

This absurdity is why Christians don't like to validate anything an atheist says. It's like a nice girl being on a date with frisky football player. One compliment and he thinks he can go all the way. You don't believe in date rape do you? Buying dinner doesn't mean the girl has to put out does it?

Logic and Christ are one and the same.

Bush is the secular President of a secular country. I agree with you that secularism poisons mens minds. But for Dubya faith in Christ? He has tried to implement Christian morality and the ACLU and the Democrats howl like wolves in sheeps clothing.

I'm truly happy that you are smelling the coffee brewing in your own soul, mind and heart.

Good. So how do you expect Jesus to view making war for secular political reasons? Favorable or unfavorable?

Quote:
You are mistaken on number three and on the context of Hosea.


Hosea 13 is only one example of god's attitude to the unborn. Aside from that there is still no biblical case against abortion. None, zip, zilch, nada.

God will destroy secular nations. Thank God for Abrahams mathematics or America would be dust by now. Saddam certainly went bye bye. And Russia before him.

Hosea is God's example to pagan and corrupt nations. Your pitiful attempt to justify abortion is sad to see.

You are so close to reality.

Opposing abortion is not an act of morality supported by the bible.

Your own views contradict this statement.

So your conservative freinds are left with warmongering and favoring the rich over the poor. Clearly poor doctrine. If christianity is true I sure would rather be an atheist on judgement day than a conservative.

Jesus was amazed at people like you. Read the Gospels. Your compassion for the unborn will serve you well on Judgment day.

No one gets there but through Jesus. I'm thinking your compassion is His way, His truth and His life.

I hope you can catch!

"Come and go with me to my Fathers house. It's a big big house with lots and lots of rooms . . . and it has . . . a big, big yard where we can play football!"

"It's my Fathers house."

Those new Christians write good songs.

I'm going to print out this thread to prove to young Christians I encourage, that atheists do indeed see things our way. You just have to look at their hearts.




For me and my house, we will serve God.

[youngborean]

a) What harm did worshipping Baal ever do?

In some parts of the Phonecian world worshipping Baal required Child Sacrifice. My Professor in University is one of the leading world Experts on Phonecian Child Sacrifice. He showed us a burial site with charred infant remains and Steele erected to Baal Hammon.

His research is outlined here:

http://cnrs.arts.ubc.ca/index.php?id=3500

[juliod]

In some parts of the Phonecian world worshipping Baal required Child Sacrifice

Lies! All Lies!

Anyway, those we No True Baalists.



DanZ
(Rough time to be a kid, huh? Sacrificed to Baal or butchered by YHWH.)

[youngborean]

Mosca's premise in assesing most of the Torah is based on this relationship between Israel and Canaan. More specifically all narratives deal with the issue of seperation of religious practices. The story I look to most in this area is Gen 22. Where God is basically saying to Abraham, "I could ask for your kid, like the nations that surround, but I really only care about your faith." The issue of child sacrifice to be the prime issue, so anyone (Israel or Cannanite) who sacrifices children is derserving of eradication a la Hosea. This is exemplified by this verse directed at Israel:


Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which [is] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded [them] not, neither came it into my heart.
Jer 7:32 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.
Jer 7:33 And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray [them] away.

[juliod]

The issue of child sacrifice to be the prime issue, so anyone (Israel or Cannanite) who sacrifices children is derserving of eradication a la Hosea.

So YHWH should be eradicated himself, since he slaughtered infants in Hosea 13?

Anyway, this is a side issue. Do you have an opinion on Bush's policies vis-a-vis christianity?

DanZ

[youngborean]

I really don't know where George will end up. I think that there are many assumptions about Christianity that could be jumped to when looking at a man in his position. I am not sure of his intentions. If they really are for the goodwill of people and human rights as he claims, then good on him for his motives, however I am not sure that I agree that you can make another country treat thier own with respect unless there is a distuinguishable desire for change. However, if it is all about money, which I frightfully think is a possibility, then I feel he is not representing christianity. However, it is really impossible for me to say definitively what is happening in his heart.

[juliod]

Again, I am unclear why christians have such problems discussing specific acts.

I am not sure of his intentions.

To what degree do his intentions matter? I could accept that god would take account of "unintended consequences", but if you make war and then tens of thousands of people are killed, where is the confusion about intentions? Is there anyplace that Jesus suggests that war for secular political purposes is valid?

And what about Dubya's wealth? Do you think he could pass through the eye of the needle?

DanZ