Dubya in Hell?

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:30 pm

Assuming that the general christian view of heaven and hell were true...

If you were Dubya, would you be worried about Judgement Day?

OK, we have the war mongering thing. The capital punishment thing. The drug and alcohol thing.

But I think the biggest worry is the obscene wealth thing. I mean the bible does say that it easier for a camel to pass through "the eye of the needle" than for a rich person to enter the "kingdom of heaven". Sounds ominous. And even if you accept that this is metaphorical, that "eye of the needle" is a device for livestock control, you are still left with a damning (pun) message. There are apparently special barriers keeping the rich out of heaven.

It's just part of the general issue with religious conservatives. They've adopted christianity, but ignore it's doctrine. It seems that the only doctrine they accept is that god wants them to hate homosexuals.

So, if you were in Dubya's shoes, and apparently a true christian, wouldn't you be terrified?

DanZ

AlAyeti · Post by **AlAyeti** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:33 pm

It seems that the actions and attributes of GWB that you admire most are is direct conflict with chrsitian doctrine as presented in the bible.

Dan,

Are you recognizing that there is merit in the Gospels?

Bush is President of the United States, he is not a Pastor of a church. He is President of a secular nation. Vote in a better Christian next time. As a secualrist politician, he is doing the bloodthirsty work seen in a secular leaders throughout history past and present.

But, I'm hoping that you will use the same Gospel on abortion, marriage, imposing high taxes on good people, sexual purity, divorce, adultery and all of the other moral teachings that you seem to suddenly value.

I'm also hoping that you become a Christian Missionary to reach Taliban and Al Queada members. They also are men of war.

I'm going to call the White House to send thousands of peaceful Christian Missionaries to the middle east.

Darn it. Forgot mabout the ACLU didn't I?

Now there is an organization that needs some churchin' up!

Go get 'em Dan.

Chimp · Post by **Chimp** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:50 pm

A governor has the ability to offer a sentence reduction, commutation, or
a stay of execution. My point is ... he (Bush) holds himself to be Christian,
and professes to follow Christian beliefs and yet seems to be at odds with
many of the teaching of Christ. While I think the subject of this debate is
fodder for flamebait, it is still the topic.

You talk a lot about unapologetic sinners and how morally corrupt they are
but here is someone in a position to magnify his sins through the power he
wields, who has sinned. Yet you defend him.

How is Bush fulfilling the charge by God to be a good steward to the planet?

AlAyeti · Post by **AlAyeti** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:59 pm

You need to prove the condition of Bush's heart. I don't even do that to homosexuals and Democrats. I judge their actions.

The ACLU and the Democrats would have impeached Bush in a second if he attempted to use his Christianity. By the vary acts you say he does, he has shown himself to be a secular President.

Judge him on that level.

As a President and as a governor, he did perform the duty of his office.

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:54 pm

As a secualrist politician, he is doing the bloodthirsty work seen in a secular leaders throughout history past and present.

We are making a little progress here.

I'm glad to see you can recognize Dubya as "bloodthirsty". Now, how do you think Jesus feels about bloodthirst in support of secular politics?

And I still don't percieve your position on whether or not there are barriers in heaven to the admission of the rich, as Jesus says. Do you accept or reject that doctrine?

DanZ

AlAyeti · Post by **AlAyeti** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:21 pm

Jesus never told Zacchaeus the rich tax collector anything about Zack's money or "wealth." Yet, "Salvation has come to the house of Zacchaeus today!" Zacchaeus offered only up to half of his wealth to pay back anyone that he had wronged. He repented of his sins

What barriers did Jesus "put up?" REPENTANCE takes them down.

Something that Liberals will not do. How many Democrat Senators are filthy rich? Feistein and Boxer and Kennedy and Kerry.

If the Republicans could, they would end abortion tonight. Even Clinton tried to establish safety for marriage and that torch is now carried by the GOP far more than today's Democrat.

Many of the first churches were held in the houses of the very rich. Philemon was rich and wasn't required to give away all he had.

Yes we made progress if you see the bloodthirstiness of secualrism and stop blaming Christians for the wrongs done by America.

To Jesus rich and everyone else, that repent are in. Anyone that doesn't repent is not in.

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:51 pm

Jesus never told Zacchaeus the rich tax collector anything about Zack's money or "wealth."

How do you know that? The story is only 9 verses, and does not support the accumulation of wealth. What did Zacchaeus promise?

Luke 19 (NIV):
8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."

He gives up half his wealth, then returns 4x the amount he has cheated people out of. See the ideal? Disperse your wealth.

Since in the US the difference between rich and poor is increasing what would a US wealthy christian do?

How about these verses:

Luke 19 (NIV):
9 Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham."

10 "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

The rich man was lost prior to the visit by Jesus whereupon he decided to give away the bulk of his wealth.

What barriers did Jesus "put up?" REPENTANCE takes them down.

Matthew 19 (NIV):
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."

24 "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Jesus even feels this point important enough to repeat.

The story fo Zacchaeus sets a very high standard to overcomeing the problem of being rich. Do you think Dubya has satisfied that standard?

How many Democrat Senators are filthy rich? Feistein and Boxer and Kennedy and Kerry.

That's one of the reasons I feel that the democrats and republicans are identical. The major democratic candidates and their high-paid cunsultant and strategists are actually republicans. They personally agree with republican fiscal policy. And it is may be true that corporations give to the republicans over the democrats in a ratio of between 3:1 and 5:1, but the democrats are still 100% dependant on those contributions.

If the Republicans could, they would end abortion tonight.

No, they wouldn't. They are afraid of the backlash by the currently inactive majority who wants abortion to be legal.

BTW, they haven't even tried to repeal the National Firearms Act over the last 5 years either. So much for "gun rights".

AlAyeti · Post by **AlAyeti** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:33 pm

I hope you see the utter irony and the hypocrisy of an Atheist preaching good Christian principles. But I am enjoying the sermon.

Are you now agreeing that Jesus is God?

Please change your profile.

Jesus never asked Zaccaeus to do anything nor did he require it. In fact Jesus wanted to use his house. A well stocked house.

In fact from the text the Lord knew Zaccaeus rather well it seems.

Lazy people have little in common with Jesus. Being poor in America should be almost impossible.

But how can I argue with your presentation of the perfection of Christian morality.

I'll start praying that rich homosexuals repent twofold. I mean you have seen the research that gays and lesbians are usually in the upper scale of wage earners right?

Now while we on perfect morality, how can a Christian Democrat vote to murder unborn children?

juliod · Post by **juliod** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 8:06 pm

I hope you see the utter irony and the hypocrisy of an Atheist preaching good Christian principles. But I am enjoying the sermon.

I have a closet desire to be a preacher. I frequently wish I was a christian so that I could give great fire-and-brimstone sermons about being rich and supporting war.

Are you now agreeing that Jesus is God?

No, of course not. But it is one of the attributes of intellectualism to be able to argue from someone else's point of view.

Also, I'm actually frustrated at the lack of moderate christian voices challenging conservatives.

In fact Jesus wanted to use his house.

Nope. Didn't you read the passage? Jesus came of "seek and save".

Lazy people have little in common with Jesus. Being poor in America should be almost impossible.

Ha ha! How unchristian. Where in the bible does Jesus ever say that the poor should be required to pass some sort of morals test? Giving money to the poor is for the benefit of the rich.

BTW, the average full-time Walmart employee makes $14,000 per year. In other words they are hard working and poor.

I mean you have seen the research that gays and lesbians are usually in the upper scale of wage earners right?

Right. It requires a certain level of enlightenment to realize that one is homosexual. So it correlates with higher education, and so higher earnings. From a conservative point of view, god is rewarding homosexuals with prosperity. (Meanwhile, the masses of lower-class conservative christians are struggling through on substandard wages, poor or no health care, and little in the way of retirement savings. Still, they are healping the billionaires become even richer, so that's something.)

Now while we on perfect morality, how can a Christian Democrat vote to murder unborn children?

Because, as I have repeatedly posted and you've not internalized, in the bible abortion is not murder. Abortion is merely a safe and effective means of birth control.

Anyway, if you do butcher a fetus, you are only following god's example. Quite a number of psychopaths have followed that sort of reasoning.

DanZ

micatala · Post by **micatala** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 8:12 pm

AlAyeti wrote:You need to prove the condition of Bush's heart. I don't even do that to homosexuals and Democrats. I judge their actions.

Amen.

As for as the OP of this thread, I think Al has exactly the bottom line here. God will judge, and God judges the heart, to which we humans only have indirect access.

I might disagree with a lot of what Bush does, but I would never suggest he is going to hell because of it.

AlAyeti · Post by **AlAyeti** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:39 pm

DanZ,

Your post is impressive and lends credence to the ever increasing value I have for people with your religious views. Youyr intellectualism sees the greatness of Biblical morality and the practice of them.

Maybe my church won't be closed down by you secularists after all.

But you ruined it with the abortion thing.

God's instructions to the Israelites are disturbing but the it is clear from the text that the Israelites were ridding the land of evil peoples.

No different than putting same-sex perpetrators to death in Israel, by similar omnipotent edict.

Do you agree that that practice can be justified now? It seems from your assertion that it indeed should find validity.

If abortion is OK because of God's instructions to destroy the abominible peoples that Israel was ridding from the land, than my views about keeping homosexuals that do not repent from good churches pales in comparison to your literalism.

But then again, Jesus was loud and clear about mercy and peace.

I'm thinking that the Christian theolgy about the "new covenant" has found an extra-biblical supporter in you.