Dubya in Hell?

[juliod]

Assuming that the general christian view of heaven and hell were true...

If you were Dubya, would you be worried about Judgement Day?

OK, we have the war mongering thing. The capital punishment thing. The drug and alcohol thing.

But I think the biggest worry is the obscene wealth thing. I mean the bible does say that it easier for a camel to pass through "the eye of the needle" than for a rich person to enter the "kingdom of heaven". Sounds ominous. And even if you accept that this is metaphorical, that "eye of the needle" is a device for livestock control, you are still left with a damning (pun) message. There are apparently special barriers keeping the rich out of heaven.

It's just part of the general issue with religious conservatives. They've adopted christianity, but ignore it's doctrine. It seems that the only doctrine they accept is that god wants them to hate homosexuals.

So, if you were in Dubya's shoes, and apparently a true christian, wouldn't you be terrified?

DanZ

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Gee guys, wish I could help, but I am in a bit of an economic crisis myself. Turns out I might not be able to affort that third yacht I have been wanting.

Good Christian mentality, right? Could have come straight from the mouth of Jesus himself. Right?

Luke 12:43
"Sell your material possessions and give the money to the poor."

Seems this verse (and others of the like) are lost on George. Too many big words, perhaps. Funny, he is all for the poor little children on the abortion issue, but has no problem ignoring poverty, or releasing unregulated sums of pollution in the atmosphere claiming the lives of hundreds of asthmatic kids every year.

Tax cuts for the upper class. Yeah man, that just screams Christian. Never mind the thousands starving in our own country.

Acts 4:32
"The whole group of believers lived in harmony. No one called any of his possessions his own. Instead, they shared everything."

Acts 2:42-47."The disciples were devoted to the teachings of the apostles, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayer. A feeling of fear came over everyone as many amazing things and miraculous signs happened through the apostles. All the believers kept meeting together, and they shared everything with each other. From time to time, they sold their property and other possessions and distributed the money to anyone who needed it. The believers had a single purpose and went to the temple every day. They were joyful and humble as they ate at each other's homes and shared their food. At the same time, they praised God and had the good will of all the people. Every day the Lord saved people, and they were added to the group."

These verses depict life as a Christian. I would be curious to hear how George applies them to his life.

How many acres is that Texas ranch again?

Who advocates the rights of big business over the rights of the common man? Who has successfully erased EVERY SINGLE environmental progression we have achieved in the last 20 years for sake of a quick buck?

Money. Money. Money. Money. Money.

Yeah, Jesus held eccessive money in very high esteem. Especially when he said "Certainly, the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil".

Is "rich christian" not an oxymoron? Did God ever encourage us to build up earthly wealth?

Matt 6:19-21
"Stop storing up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and rust destroy and theives break in and steal. Instead, store up treasures for yourselves in heaven. Your heart will be where your treasure is."

Seems rather incriminating of our 'good' Christian upper class.

But alas! It seems good old George has done some good deeds. Free Iraq! End the oppression! Distribute the wealth!

Perhaps Dubya does have a little Christian in him.

Of course, if we are taking the time to liberate Iraq, I would assume we have all ready succeeded in aiding even poorer areas of the planet. If my assumption is correct, then that must mean that our campains in Afghanistan, Angola, Bangladesh, Benin, Bhutan, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Comoros, Democratic Republic of Congo, Djibouti, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Haiti, Kiribati, Laos, Lesotho, Liberia, Madagascar, Malawi, Maldives, Mali, Mauritania, Mozambique, Myanmar, Nepal, Niger, Rwanda, Samoa, São Tomé and Príncipe, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Somalia, Sudan, East Timor, Togo, Tuvalu, Uganda, Tanzania, Vanuatu, Yemen, and Zambia have been widely successful.

Wait just a minute. We have not helped any of these countries. They are just as poor as they have always been. I wonder why we would focus our humanitarian concerns on Iraq when our help is more direly needed elsewhere? Common sense would tell you that we should start with the worst, right?

Now answer this. Is it just a coincidence that the one poor country we decide to invade has the one big commodity the others lack- OIL?

See what this all boils down to?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



I'm sorry, but I just cannot see the 'Christian' in this man. I can't stand it when people tell me that I, as a Christian, ought to follow our president's example. If George Bush's values really reflect that of Jesus', then humanism here I come. I cannot support what he supports and still retain even an ounce of moral integrity.

[AlAyeti]

Do you repudiate the doctrine of forgiveness?

I preach it.

I forgive you.

Funny though, I somehow think you will not go to any Islamic country and argue with a Muslim.

My personal life is not part of this debate. I think my views on the Gospels are consistent and any reasonable person can see that I submit to the judgment of Christ. I am not ashamed of the Gospel.

The hypocrisy of thinking that George Bush should push his religion on Iraq is bizaare. In one side of the mouth is concern for the poor and in the next its for keeping politics secular.

This irrational point of view on Bush is almost laughble to watch presented. He'll never be damned except by the left as in if he does and if he doesn't. The man simply cannot get a break from the absurdity dwelling in the logic of the leftist. Talk about hatred.

He holds a secular office and was elected to a secular country.

He holds no religious title.

[juliod]

C'mon, PP, stop holding back on us. Tell us how you really feel...

DanZ

[juliod]

The hypocrisy of thinking that George Bush should push his religion on Iraq is bizaare.

You consistently misunderstand the questions I am asking.

I asked if christian doctrine requires you to not kill your enemies. Is that such a hard question to get your head around?

And again, where in the bible does Jesus advocate war? I really want to know.

And as for forgiveness, is it consistent with war? If you kill someone, can that be a form of forgiveness?

Didn't Jesus advocate passivity in the face of violence?

DanZ

[Chimp]

He holds a secular office and was elected to a secular country.

He holds no religious title.

And yet he promotes his religion by singling out religious organizations for funding.

He begins a war by describing it as a holy war (crusade)

So he claims he is a secular leader? He would say he is a Christian leader.
I think the irony is...Clinton asked for forgiveness for his transgressions, yet
Bush is too proud to even admit he has transgressed. But people say Bush is
the true Christian.

[AlAyeti]

Clinton wants to change the immutable. He still advocates abortion for convenience. He advocates the destruction of the family. His taxation policies place undue hardships on honest people. Very Un-Christian.

I forgave him the Lewisnsky thing.

I'm waiting for him to repent of the other abominations he still involves himself in.

Bush a Christian politician?

Render to Caesar what is Caesars and God's what is God. But, a democrat or atheist-liberal-progressive-secular-freethinker-leftist wouldn't take an apology from George Bush as anything but a wound to attack.

Bush's administration had a good perspective on Iraq, because it has cabinaet members that were involved in giving Hussien the technology for WMD's to fight Iran, that he used on the Kurds and others.

What amazes me in the hatred and hypocrisy meted out to Bush is that he has never sent missionaries into the Middle East as part of the faith-based initiative.

And yet he promotes his religion by singling out religious organizations for funding.

Which organizations are singled out? Muslim's, Jewish Organizations, Bahai's, etc., etc. . . . literally any faith-based org can get funding. Is it any fault of so many Christians that they do so much for so many unfortunate people?

Bush is just not a bigot towards the worth of religious people like the secualrists of the Left.

from juliod:

I asked if christian doctrine requires you to not kill your enemies. Is that such a hard question to get your head around?

And again, where in the bible does Jesus advocate war? I really want to know.

And as for forgiveness, is it consistent with war? If you kill someone, can that be a form of forgiveness?

Didn't Jesus advocate passivity in the face of violence?

I understand you are using liberal spin theory. America is a secular country. The President acts in secualr capacity.

Where in the Bible does it say to fight the govermentr of ones own country?

Or, to let other people die by the hands of anti-Christians while marching in anti-war parties?

Bush did what was allowable under our current system of (secualr) government. The majority of voters in this democracy re-elected him.

Vote in an anti-Christian, anti-American coward next time. The democrats have plenty of qualified members to offer.

It seems the madness of anti-Christian thought clouds the view of anti-Christians towards the accurate view of George Bush and his actions while in the office of President of the United States. A secular country by its own constitutional definition.

Also I would denounce Bush for saying that Iraq was a Crusade because he would be wrong about that. Is that documented? This time, the Muslim's didn't kill Christians and take their cities. This time it was Muslim's murdering Muslim's in Iraq.

Pretty open-minded and compassionate for a "Christian fundamentalist" to want to stop that. Fortunately for the Iraqi's George Bush is an open-minded and compassionate leader of a free world "secularist" nation. All of those other secular leaders of secular countries around the world just sat by and watched all of the carnage and did nothing.

[Chimp]

Clinton wants to change the immutable. He still advocates abortion for convenience. He advocates the destruction of the family. His taxation policies place undue hardships on honest people. Very Un-Christian.

You're nuts if you think Bush's tax breaks benefit anyone but the rich.

There are no WMD's...that was the rationale for the war, not humanitarian,
not fighting terrorism...Colin Powell went before the UN and argued that
Iraq had WMD's. It was a fabrication. Seems like false witness to me.

As governor of Texas he allowed a man to be executed when DNA evidence
exhonorated him. He allowed another man to be put to death when the man's
lawyer slept through part of his trial.

I appreciate that you are a Bush loyalist, and as such are required to
defend him, but saying he shouldn't fess up to mistakes because it is
fodder for the left demonstrates a lack of responsibility.

[AlAyeti]

There are no WMD's...that was the rationale for the war, not humanitarian,
not fighting terrorism...Colin Powell went before the UN and argued that
Iraq had WMD's. It was a fabrication. Seems like false witness to me.

Rumsfeld was part of the Reagan administration that helped Iraq get the technology for those WMD's. Morally it was the US that should have rid the world of them when Saddam became a really, really bad guy. As in, once he started paying suicide bomber families, there was a bigtime threat to the world. The UN had all of those resolutions about those weapons for factual reasons as well.

As governor of Texas he allowed a man to be executed when DNA evidence
exhonorated him. He allowed another man to be put to death when the man's
lawyer slept through part of his trial.

You mean he should have inflicted Texas with his Christian views? in that case as Governor, he should have forgiven every criminal that repented and freed them. By the way, when did Governors start to try cases? And I'm thinking that you are a purveyor of seperation of church and state.

I appreciate that you are a Bush loyalist, and as such are required to
defend him, but saying he shouldn't fess up to mistakes because it is
fodder for the left demonstrates a lack of responsibility.

I am not even close to a Bush "loyalist." I just don't beleive in supporting every leftist hysterical piece of BS against the man. I do respect the man though. I respected Clinton when he was President as well.

As an American citizen, to me, the success in Iraq meant that when Saddam was caught, every American should have left the country. If the Iraqi's do not want to keep the incredible gift given to them by the United States military and its Commander in Chief. . .(insert expletives!) . . the Iraqi's.

The Left has demonstarted a lack of responsiblity on virtually everything they inflict on society. I pity these people when they talk to the Lord about promoting abortion for convenience, redefining the family and marriage, and allowing the poor to wallow on government assistence, instead of showing a better moral way for people to live.

George Bush has proven to me to be a fine and decent man of brave and good character.

But, I am only loyal to Christ Jesus and the morality that follows that commitment.

[AlAyeti]

You're nuts if you think Bush's tax breaks benefit anyone but the rich.

Do you mean all of the rich that own all of the companies that employ all of the working people in the US?

If anyone should get tax breaks it is them.

Communism has been proven to be a worthless way to run a society.

The Left are insane about the way they want to and indeed do, tax so many things. Why not let people keep their money and invest it in their own cultural diversity?

Isn't "choice" the incessant mantra of the left?

I'm not rich and have benefitted greatly from Bush's tax policy. If the Left would allow school vouchers and allow families to keep their own money, then children would indeed benefit from the better choices people could make by using their own money for good causes.

Man, it's just that easy.

[juliod]

It seems the madness of anti-Christian thought clouds the view of anti-Christians towards the accurate view of George Bush and his actions while in the office of President of the United States.

I don't understand you even slightly.

It seems that the actions and attributes of GWB that you admire most are is direct conflict with chrsitian doctrine as presented in the bible.

Dubya is rich. Meanwhile, Jesus of the bible holds poverty up as a holy ideal. He specifically recommends giving money away, to the poor, or to the tax collector. Yes, it may be possible for a rich person to go to heaven, but do you agree that there are specific provisions that make it extraordinarily difficult? As difficult, in fact, as a camel passing through the eye of the needle.

Above all, Dubya is a war-maker. War is his option of first choice. His political determinations have caused the death of tens of thousands of people. We are killing Iraqis much faster than Hussein is accused of doing. Where in the bible does Jesus say anything that could be interpreted to support this sort of thing? Is it possible for a christian to support killing in pursuit of any secular political purpose? You keep ducking these questions.

For you and for Dubya, I ask: is your conservativism more important to you than your christianity?

DanZ