Dubya in Hell?

[juliod]

Assuming that the general christian view of heaven and hell were true...

If you were Dubya, would you be worried about Judgement Day?

OK, we have the war mongering thing. The capital punishment thing. The drug and alcohol thing.

But I think the biggest worry is the obscene wealth thing. I mean the bible does say that it easier for a camel to pass through "the eye of the needle" than for a rich person to enter the "kingdom of heaven". Sounds ominous. And even if you accept that this is metaphorical, that "eye of the needle" is a device for livestock control, you are still left with a damning (pun) message. There are apparently special barriers keeping the rich out of heaven.

It's just part of the general issue with religious conservatives. They've adopted christianity, but ignore it's doctrine. It seems that the only doctrine they accept is that god wants them to hate homosexuals.

So, if you were in Dubya's shoes, and apparently a true christian, wouldn't you be terrified?

DanZ

[harvey1]

If you were Dubya, would you be worried about Judgement Day?

I don't think Bush is worried about his salvation. He is a person who lives with the certainty of his position. If I were me (which I am, I think... ) and had done the same things as Bush, then I wouldn't be so much worried of a terrifying God at the end of time, I'd be more worried about seeing all the faces and pain that I had caused to those souls. That would bother me a great deal. Of course, that's because I think that Bush made the wrong decisions to cause those people pain and suffering.

However, let me ask you the same question, Juliod. Do you think that anything matters? Soon enough the universe will begin expanding at an infinite speed, galaxies will fly apart, then solar systems will be torn away from their suns, then moons will be torn away from their planets, planets will be torn to pieces, and then atoms will be torn away into elementary particles, quarks will be torn away from their confinement, and finally the laws of physics will completely breakdown. What does it matter? Sheez, if I were an atheist, I wouldn't even bother getting out of bed.

[juliod]

However, let me ask you the same question

Let's stay on the topic of this thread, the moral status of our current political leaders.

A thread on why atheists should get out of bed might be interesting, but belongs in the philosophy forum.

DanZ

[AlAyeti]

The bigotry of the question spoils the premise.

The President of the United States did what he is legally able to do.

Are not Christians always denigrated to keep their Christianty dead while in sight of the public?

George Bush will be met by all of the people whose lives they gave for the neighbors. It seems to always escape the ability for a secularist to find worth in other people of other nations.

The UN had all of those resolutions against Iraq but did nothing but send some useless UN clerks to bob around Iraq, led around by Iraqi military goons. The UN was concerned about WMD'd but again that simple truth escapes Bush haters.

Bush and the men and women of the American and t(he pitiful few) Coalition forces risk, and indeed some of them gave their lives for, the Iraqi's to end their suffering at the hands of Saddam Hussien and the weapons of mass destruction THAT HE HAD USED ON THEM.

While secularists spin in their leftist rhetoric, Bush did something. BUT, he did it in a secular manner. He did not send in Chritsian Missionaries, precisely because American Presidents act in a secular capacity.

That simple truth seems to escape the garden-variety leftist.

His days of drug use are behind him and he has found forgiveness for them in his faith and from his God. While leftists are legalizing marijuana faster than a cheap whore can put on new perfume, Bush has moved on and found a better way to live.

Dubya, will be just fine in heaven. And, then again, so will the inexpensive prostitute if she repents.

But leftists that see people in need and walk on by while in a line with other anti-war apathists, will have only regret on their death beds and a chasm to watch George Bush from for an eternity.

Imagine what awaits the sixties draft dodger and anti-war protester when they get to see the millions and millions and millions of innocent men, women and children that they allowed to be murdered by their fellow communists. Those slaughterd innocents in the killing fields set up just days after American soldiers were pulled out of Vietnam.

Something tells me that judgment awaits the hypocrite and Bush will not be among them.

[juliod]

Dubya, will be just fine in heaven.

Ah.

Obviously you aren't worried about the warmonger thing. I'm not sure how that fits in with Jesus' teachings.

But what about the rich thing? Aren't you concerned about what Jesus said? Eye, needle, etc; rich man, heaven, etc?

George Bush will be met by all of the people whose lives they gave for the neighbors. It seems to always escape the ability for a secularist to find worth in other people of other nations.

How many Iraqis are we saving? I mean, we are killing them at a rate of something like 3-10 times that SH is accused of. And we are drag-netting them and torturing them, even in the same prisons as SH. I would ask if merely supporting Dubya would be enough to send you to hell.

Speaking of "saving" the Iraqis, isn't it true by christian doctrine that those thousands we have killed can not now be converted to christianity? When you kill an infidel, aren't you condemning them to hell? What if they would have converted sometime in the next decade?

DanZ

[palmera]

While secularists spin in their leftist rhetoric, Bush did something. BUT, he did it in a secular manner. He did not send in Chritsian Missionaries, precisely because American Presidents act in a secular capacity.

There are plenty of Christian missionaries that have been there, and no the government cannot send them over in an official capacity; and yet Bush called his campaign against Iraq (and terrorists for that matter) a "CRUSADE." If this is not an explicitly religious sentiment then I don't know what is. This is not a secular statement- and if presidents are purely secular heads then why hasn't a non-Christian been president yet? It's not because white's are the majority and we should have a majority leader. It's not because of coincidence, and it's not because our country's founding fathers were Christians, which most were not. It's because white christians have the power in this country and will not see a non-christian (hell barely even a catholic for that matter) run our government. SO while you say presidents act in a secular matter the president's position as secular leader is thinly veiled, and not at all so in the Bush administration.

[AlAyeti]

DAN Z,

Your absurdities pile up.

Iraq is not a religious war. Stop watching Al Jezeera. Like every other decision that our government has ever made, it is a secular decision.

How many Iraqis are we saving? I mean, we are killing them at a rate of something like 3-10 times that SH is accused of. And we are drag-netting them and torturing them, even in the same prisons as SH. I would ask if merely supporting Dubya would be enough to send you to hell.

Stop listening to Howard Dean and Air America too.

Only Republicans and others voted for George W. Bush. Freely. It's a democracy and has never been a theocracy this little American experiment. Never. (Now think about what those Secularists did to all of those Native Americans.) Remember, also, that abolition of Slavery was a Christian-Political movement that had some good success. Don't you think so?

Speaking of "saving" the Iraqis, isn't it true by christian doctrine that those thousands we have killed can not now be converted to christianity? When you kill an infidel, aren't you condemning them to hell? What if they would have converted sometime in the next decade?

Your hypocrisy is showing. You and others will support the wholesale outlawing of Christian Missionaries to go into other countries. It seems clear that those that have not heard about the real Christ were denied this by anti-religion secularitst and Muslim Jihadists. Please put the blame where it belongs.

Also, it is clear that both Jesus and Paul thought the actions of those that imitate the law of God are to be admired. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." And . . . "Love your neighbor as yourself."

If only Secular America would embrace the truth in Christianty.

Please endeavor to learn the truth about things.

[juliod]

Iraq is not a religious war.

I never said it was. But how do you imagine Jesus feels about secular war?

Did Jesus say "Thou shalt not kill, unless you have a political motive, then it's OK."?

Does Jesus condone large-scale killing for secular purposes? Where does it say that in the bible?

Only Republicans and others voted for George W. Bush. Freely. It's a democracy and has never been a theocracy this little American experiment. Never. (Now think about what those Secularists did to all of those Native Americans.) Remember, also, that abolition of Slavery was a Christian-Political movement that had some good success. Don't you think so?

I'm unclear on how the above quote is an explanation or rationalization of the morality of killing Iraqi at a rate much higher than that of which Hussein was accused.

Remember, in this thread I am asking about the christian perspective, not trying to prove the christian perspective wrong. By one simple measure, we are oppressing the Iraqis 3-10 times as much as Hussein. How do you expect Jesus to judge Bush and his supporters? If we can reasonably expect Hussein to go to hell, what about Bush? What about you? Are you worried?

Your hypocrisy is showing. You and others will support the wholesale outlawing of Christian Missionaries to go into other countries. It seems clear that those that have not heard about the real Christ were denied this by anti-religion secularitst and Muslim Jihadists. Please put the blame where it belongs.

There's no hypocrisy. I'm asking a question. Doesn't christian doctrine suggest that you should preserve the lives of your enemies, so that they may possibly be saved?

Also, it is clear that both Jesus and Paul thought the actions of those that imitate the law of God are to be admired. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." And . . . "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Both those statement are incompatible wiith war, don't you think? Didn't Jesus teach that it is better to be oppressed by your enemies than to fight them? To forgive, endlessly, rather than kill?

Also, I note that you didn't answer my main point, about the rich. Do you believe that there are specific barriers against the wealthy in the gates of heaven? Isn't that a christian principle?

DanZ

[AlAyeti]

Giving your life for a brother?

The Left are cowards in that cause. They'll gripe from the safety of American streets while American soldiers fight and die for others. You need to rethink your position here.

And Matthew the tax collector - a very rich and dishonest man before repenting - was never told to give up all of his wealth. He only said he would repay whoever he wronged. He remained rich and a tax collector, there is no reason to believe he didin't. Historically (outside of the Bible), many of the first churches were started in the houses of very rich Christians.

Philemon was a rich Christian. Read the book.

I love restoring truth to progressive-liberal mythologizing.

[juliod]

Giving your life for a brother?

The Left are cowards in that cause. They'll gripe from the safety of American streets while American soldiers fight and die for others. You need to rethink your position here.

Is this supposed to be an answer to how Jesus would feel about secular war?

So you assert that Jesus feels that pacifists are cowards? That "giving your life" is not a form of suicide nor is killing for political causes murder? Where in the bible does it show Jesus promoting large-scale killing for secual puroposes?

Do you repudiate the doctrine of forgiveness?

And Matthew the tax collector

So was Jesus wrong or lying when he said that about camels, eyes, needles and getting into heaven?

The doctrine you have advanced is intriguing. I've never read anything like it among christian churches. If you don't mind answering, I'd like to know what church, denomination, or organization you belong to.

DanZ