Should discrimination against gays be allowed?

[McCulloch]

Should landlords, employers, educators, government agencies and persons conducting business be allowed, by law, to discriminate against homosexual persons solely on the basis of the person's sexual orientation?

Should churches be allowed to discriminate against homosexual persons?

[McCulloch]

My answer to the first question is "No" for exactly the same reason that it is not allowed, in law, to discriminate based on gender, race, religion etc. It is unfair. Those attributes are (or should be) irrelevant to the decisions being made.

My answer to the second question is "Yes". Religious organizations are exempt from strict adherence to anti-discrimination laws. Almost all churches discriminate on the basis of religious belief. Some churches limit involvement based on gender. A few even limit involvement based on marital status. Churches must be free to set their own requirements for membership, even if those requirements run contrary to normally acceptable societal standards.

[keltzkroz]

Regarding discrimination against gays in Christian churches, one thing I don't understand is why some Christians single out homosexuality as a sin while forgetting that all are sinners (according to Christian belief), and that we all need to repent.

So I'm against discrimination in churches, because all must be given the chance to repent.

[McCulloch]

Regarding discrimination against gays in Christian churches, one thing I don't understand is why some Christians single out homosexuality as a sin while forgetting that all are sinners (according to Christian belief), and that we all need to repent.

So I'm against discrimination in churches, because all must be given the chance to repent.

I think that the distinction should be made between those who are sinners and those who disagree with the particular church on what is or is not a sin. My question for kelzkroz is, if there should not be discrimination against gays in Christian churches, should the non-discrimination have the force of law? Would that be a violation of the separation of church and state? What about non-Christian religious groups?

What about race? Should the state allow a church to discriminate on the basis of race?

[keltzkroz]

Hopefully I understood your question.

Let's say we have this religion founded on the belief that only women can join. Obviously, homosexual and heterosexual males are not allowed to join. Should they be forced by the law to be non-discriminatory towards males? As much as I despise discrimination, I think they should be allowed to follow their beliefs on who can join based on sexual orientation, same with race, hair color, amount of money in the bank, or how many dogs they own.

[juliod]

Should the state allow a church to discriminate on the basis of race?

Churches already do, and the government does not attempt to regulate it. Churches are, after all, the last great segregated aspect of our society.

It's clear that religions are becoming more and more backwards as compared to secular society. You can see this clearly with groups like the Taleban and evangelical christians. They want to return us to the Bronze Age.

Regulation of religion is coming in the US. There's no way to avoid it now, since we allow funding of "faith-based" groups by federal money. The churches will get addicted to this money like a crack addict. Once they are hooked they will get to the point where they are unable too manage without the federal subsidy, maybe it will take ten years of mainlining government funds. Then the regulations will start. First it will be things like a ban on supporting terrorism. Then they will start chipping away at doctrine. "You can't get federal funds if your church excludes blacks." Once addicted, the churches will not be able to resist these demands. Doctrine will be altered at the will of government beaurocrats. Churches will be relegated to teaching a degraded form of vague deism.

Mark my words on this...

DanZ

[McCulloch]

Regulation of religion is coming in the US. There's no way to avoid it now, since we allow funding of "faith-based" groups by federal money. The churches will get addicted to this money like a crack addict. Once they are hooked they will get to the point where they are unable too manage without the federal subsidy, maybe it will take ten years of mainlining government funds. Then the regulations will start. First it will be things like a ban on supporting terrorism. Then they will start chipping away at doctrine. "You can't get federal funds if your church excludes blacks." Once addicted, the churches will not be able to resist these demands. Doctrine will be altered at the will of government beaurocrats. Churches will be relegated to teaching a degraded form of vague deism.

Mark my words on this...

DanZ

Your words are so marked. I suspect that your prediction will come to naught if the Americans come to their senses and elect a Democrat (or at least a moderate Republican) and correct the electoral abuses in the system. Bush's "faith based" initiative is clearly a step backwards.

[AlAyeti]

Why can't gays and other anti-Christians start their own churches?

Democrats are anti-Christian. The second or third thing they'll do if they gain power over decent people is attack Churches that teach truth.

Everyone discriminates. Most people will not walk through "bad neighborhoods" at night. That Christians are being forced to deny their faith should be shocking to a secualrist, but gays have allies in traditional enemies of Christianity.

Why the attack on Christianity? Islam is anti-homosexual and anti-secularism. Christians don't fight back with violence, that's why.

Secularists will return society back to Rome, Greece or Sodom in no time. Secularists gain power from chaos.

That Churches are not tolerated as existing in freedom is evident from this thread.

Damn the founders idea of religious freedom and seperation from state run tyranny over them. The people fed in the aftermath of Katrina sought the help of the Christians that fed them and found food while the secular government watched people die.

Most churches have nothing to do with fed dollars. They know what will happen if Democrats take over the government.

What secularists cannot tolerate is a free exchange if ideas. If they allow freedom of voice, then Christianity will continue to grow.

Democrats would lose further power and their relentless proliferation of sexualism will fade, as those that led the life of the woman caught in adultery will find relief from a life of regret. Christianity is hope. Secularism is a mindless road of lifelessness leading to death. Most all Christians come from a life led by secular beliefs that failed them.

Homosexuals refuse to repent. All Christians know and believe that all people are sinners. This includes Christaians and homosexuals. But, not to homosexuals and secularists. Both deny the rights of Christians to live free in the life they have chosen freely.

Those who do not repent cannot be Christians. They can be American citizens well and good. But Christians have the same right to be citizens without the destruction of everything they beleive in. Gays and Lesbians, want to end Christianity because of something they feel is insulting. Let them start their own churches.

Christians are not demanding to silence Synagouges that still teach that Jesus is not the Christ. Indeed, even in the Jewish Talmud there is insulting anti-Christian statements. Christians challenge Rabbi's the same way they do secularists, through free exchange of ideas. Homosexuals and secularists cannot tolerate that. Now, they seek new laws to silence, denigrate and illegalize Chrsitians. The ACLU for example, whose head is a homosexual, goes in search of only Christian symbols nationwide to expunge them from sight.

You don't see human rights groups of Christians lobbying congress to take away the religious rights of Jewish practioners of Judaism.

This attack on Christianity was foretold.

Certainly the non-Christians attacking the church haven't changed since the penning of the New Testament.

This thread is a perfect example that the fear Christians have of the Homosexual Agenda is well placed. They do not seek tolerance and like secularists, they are demanding total power. Even in churches.

[McCulloch]

Why can't gays and other anti-Christians start their own churches?

Some of them have. Why can radical Christians and anti-Gays leave them be?

Democrats are anti-Christian.

That will be a surprise to the significant number of Democrats who attend church. Could it be that their definition of what is Christian is different than AlAyeti's?

The second or third thing they'll do if they gain power over decent people is attack Churches that teach truth.

I am sure that they won't. There now both AlAyeti and I have made unsupported assertions.

Everyone discriminates. Most people will not walk through "bad neighborhoods" at night. That Christians are being forced to deny their faith should be shocking to a secualrist, but gays have allies in traditional enemies of Christianity.

I would be quite interested to know just how in the USA Christians are being forced to deny their faith.

Why the attack on Christianity? Islam is anti-homosexual and anti-secularism. Christians don't fight back with violence, that's why.

I guess that AlAyeti does not read various forethought magazines so he cannot be aware of the various movements against Islamic fundamentalism by freethinking atheist liberal left leaning folk.

Secularists will return society back to Rome, Greece or Sodom in no time.

Fundamentalists will return society back to medievalism and the dark ages in no time.

Secularists gain power from chaos.

Fundamentalists gain power from ignorance.

That Churches are not tolerated as existing in freedom is evident from this thread.

I cannot see where churches are not being tolerated.

Damn the founders idea of religious freedom and seperation from state run tyranny over them.

Secularists strongly advocate the separation of church and state. Religious freedom should include freedom from religion as well.

Most churches have nothing to do with fed dollars. They know what will happen if Democrats take over the government.

Wise.

What secularists cannot tolerate is a free exchange if ideas. If they allow freedom of voice, then Christianity will continue to grow.

I will wait for some form of evidence of this unsupported assertion before I respond except to say that religions have a long history of suppressing the free exchange of ideas.

Most all Christians come from a life led by secular beliefs that failed them.

I would like to see statistical evidence to back up this claim. My, rather subjective, experience is that most Christians come from a Christian upbringing.

Homosexuals refuse to repent. All Christians know and believe that all people are sinners. This includes Christaians and homosexuals. But, not to homosexuals and secularists. Both deny the rights of Christians to live free in the life they have chosen freely.

In what way are Christians being denied rights? They are free to practice their beliefs. They are free to associate or not associate as they see fit. They are free to call anything a sin that suits them. They are not free to impose their sense of morality on those who disagree.

Those who do not repent cannot be Christians. They can be American citizens well and good. But Christians have the same right to be citizens without the destruction of everything they beleive in.

Precisely what is being destroyed. Again hyperbole. I do not think that the homosexual agenda wants to destroy everything the Christians believe in. For instance, the Christians believe in the saying,

"You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy. But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Dont even the tax collectors do the same? If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Dont even the tax collectors do the same? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

No one wants to take that away from the Christians. So the word everything is hyperbole.

Gays and Lesbians, want to end Christianity because of something they feel is insulting.

No they don't. They don't want to join it either, for the most part. At least not the fundamentalist-literalist form.

Let them start their own churches.

As I have said, some of them have.

Christians are not demanding to silence Synagouges that still teach that Jesus is not the Christ.

Nor are the human rights advocates demanding to silence the churches from teaching to their own people, that homosexuality is a sin.

Indeed, even in the Jewish Talmud there is insulting anti-Christian statements.

And in the Christian New Testament there are some insulting anti-semitic statements.

Christians challenge Rabbi's the same way they do secularists, through free exchange of ideas. Homosexuals and secularists cannot tolerate that.

Yes they can.

Now, they seek new laws to silence, denigrate and illegalize Chrsitians. The ACLU for example, whose head is a homosexual, goes in search of only Christian symbols nationwide to expunge them from sight.

Are they removing crosses from churches? Or are they removing overtly specifically religious symbols from public places in order to remove any impression that the USA has an established religion?

You don't see human rights groups of Christians lobbying congress to take away the religious rights of Jewish practioners of Judaism.

And I don't see human rights groups of atheists and freethinkers lobbying congress to take away the religious rights of Christian practitioners.

This attack on Christianity was foretold.

Where?

Certainly the non-Christians attacking the church haven't changed since the penning of the New Testament.

That's funny, everyone else has changed. Even the Christians.

This thread is a perfect example that the fear Christians have of the Homosexual Agenda is well placed. They do not seek tolerance and like secularists, they are demanding total power. Even in churches.

How? I, an atheist, skeptic and freethinker, am on record that churches should continue to be exempt from the anti-discrimination statutes which bind all other organizations in our society.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

Christians certainly have the right to discriminate for any faith based reason. The first ammendment grants this. They should realize however that they would be completely disregarding these verses:

Rom 15:7 Therefore, accept each other in the same way that Christ accepted you. He did this to bring glory to God.

Eph 4:2 Be humble and gentle in every way. Be patient with each other and lovingly accept each other.