Christianity and Abortion

[Kenyon]

As I understand it, christian doctrine provides for exactly two ways to get into heaven: making the choice to accept Jesus as your savior, or dying young enough not be held accountable for this choice.

If that's true, all aborted babies would go to heaven. Alternatively, if none of the babies were aborted, some would grow up to accept Jesus as their savior, and some would not. Thus, some would go to heaven, and some would go to hell.

If the overarching goal of Christianity is to get as many souls into heaven as possible, it would seem that abortion is actually aligned with that goal.

[VermilionUK]

As I understand it, christian doctrine provides for exactly two ways to get into heaven: making the choice to accept Jesus as your savior, or dying young enough not be held accountable for this choice.

If that's true, all aborted babies would go to heaven. Alternatively, if none of the babies were aborted, some would grow up to accept Jesus as their savior, and some would not. Thus, some would go to heaven, and some would go to hell.

If the overarching goal of Christianity is to get as many souls into heaven as possible, it would seem that abortion is actually aligned with that goal.

One of the many strange workings of Christianity, my friend...
Allow me to illustrate:
-> -> -> :2gun: -> {|= ->

Obviously (most) Christians don't think this way, but in some ways this is what their teachings suggest - or at least imply, if they were to be applied to this circumstance. Although, it seems a tad crazy to me.

[Catholily]

Greetings!

As I understand it, christian doctrine provides for exactly two ways to get into heaven: making the choice to accept Jesus as your savior, or dying young enough not be held accountable for this choice.

If that's true, all aborted babies would go to heaven.

Well...nnno.
First - According to orthodox Catholic teaching, aborted babies generally cannot be given a canonically valid baptism. And the correct orthodox teaching on unbaptized babies (as distinct from what the priest tells the grieving mother at her child's grave) is that we simply do not know what their eternal fate is. The Church can only entrust unbaptized children to the mercy of God and hope that they may be saved. (See Catechism of the Catholic Church 1261).
And, atheists, it is not beyond your imagining that God, if He wished, might give these babies the same kind of mercy that He gave to Ramesses Amenherkhepeshef and thousands of his little countrymen.

Second - Unlike many early heresies such as Manicheanism and Donatism, orthodox Jews and Christians have always taught that earthly life is a blessing and a gift from God. Magnificent Great Psalms and, of course, a certain Song of Songs, celebrate earthly life.
Moreover, no matter how beautiful and pleasant Heaven is, there are certain activities and opportunities that can be enjoyed only on earth. Jesus Himself gave an example of one such activity: Marriage (Mt. 22:30). Raising children is another earth-only activity. Scientific pursuits are yet another. I absolutely love Egyptology, for example, but know that I must leave it on earth when my time comes.

Third -

Alternatively, if none of the babies were aborted, some would grow up to accept Jesus as their savior, and some would not. Thus, some would go to heaven, and some would go to hell.

Some theologians postulate that one of the biggest pleasures of Heaven (and one of the biggest torments of Hell) will be the realization that you have freely chosen this fate. Those who go to Heaven against their will are going to be denied this pleasure of free choice.

God's peace,
Catholily.

[elle]

Those who go to Heaven against their will are going to be denied this pleasure of free choice.

If this is too far off topic, can someone split this into another thread in the belief section? Thank you.

My question is, what is the source of this doctrine that someone can go to heaven against their will. I think that is the first time I've heard this.

[Kenyon]

As I understand it, christian doctrine provides for exactly two ways to get into heaven: making the choice to accept Jesus as your savior, or dying young enough not be held accountable for this choice.

If that's true, all aborted babies would go to heaven.

Well...nnno.
First - According to orthodox Catholic teaching, aborted babies generally cannot be given a canonically valid baptism. And the correct orthodox teaching on unbaptized babies (as distinct from what the priest tells the grieving mother at her child's grave) is that we simply do not know what their eternal fate is. The Church can only entrust unbaptized children to the mercy of God and hope that they may be saved. (See Catechism of the Catholic Church 1261).
And, atheists, it is not beyond your imagining that God, if He wished, might give these babies the same kind of mercy that He gave to Ramesses Amenherkhepeshef and thousands of his little countrymen.

I see that our initial disconnect here is that I was speaking from a protestant perspective- as opposed to the Catholic perspective you present here. Nevertheless, how can the possibility of dead children (aborted or otherwise) not going to heaven possibly be considered consistent with a fair and just God? They have no control over whether they were baptized or not.

Third -

Alternatively, if none of the babies were aborted, some would grow up to accept Jesus as their savior, and some would not. Thus, some would go to heaven, and some would go to hell.

Some theologians postulate that one of the biggest pleasures of Heaven (and one of the biggest torments of Hell) will be the realization that you have freely chosen this fate. Those who go to Heaven against their will are going to be denied this pleasure of free choice.

Surely other pleasures would compensate- like the pleasure of not being in hell. Also, an aborted baby surely can't be said to have freely chosen any fate whatsoever.

[realthinker]

Greetings!

As I understand it, christian doctrine provides for exactly two ways to get into heaven: making the choice to accept Jesus as your savior, or dying young enough not be held accountable for this choice.

If that's true, all aborted babies would go to heaven.

Well...nnno.
First - According to orthodox Catholic teaching, aborted babies generally cannot be given a canonically valid baptism. And the correct orthodox teaching on unbaptized babies (as distinct from what the priest tells the grieving mother at her child's grave) is that we simply do not know what their eternal fate is. The Church can only entrust unbaptized children to the mercy of God and hope that they may be saved. (See Catechism of the Catholic Church 1261).
And, atheists, it is not beyond your imagining that God, if He wished, might give these babies the same kind of mercy that He gave to Ramesses Amenherkhepeshef and thousands of his little countrymen.

If an unborn fetus is enough of a person to suggest that abortion is murder, why is it not enough of a person to be baptized?

Probably another debate, but a question i've asked over and over with no response.

]


Second - Unlike many early heresies such as Manicheanism and Donatism, orthodox Jews and Christians have always taught that earthly life is a blessing and a gift from God. Magnificent Great Psalms and, of course, a certain Song of Songs, celebrate earthly life.
Moreover, no matter how beautiful and pleasant Heaven is, there are certain activities and opportunities that can be enjoyed only on earth. Jesus Himself gave an example of one such activity: Marriage (Mt. 22:30). Raising children is another earth-only activity. Scientific pursuits are yet another. I absolutely love Egyptology, for example, but know that I must leave it on earth when my time comes.

Third -

Alternatively, if none of the babies were aborted, some would grow up to accept Jesus as their savior, and some would not. Thus, some would go to heaven, and some would go to hell.

Some theologians postulate that one of the biggest pleasures of Heaven (and one of the biggest torments of Hell) will be the realization that you have freely chosen this fate. Those who go to Heaven against their will are going to be denied this pleasure of free choice.

God's peace,
Catholily.

I like that bit about "Some theologians postulate . . ."

Some of us postulate that there is no god and no heaven.

And if heaven is all it's cracked up to be, how are there degrees of pleasure?

[cholland]

As I understand it, christian doctrine provides for exactly two ways to get into heaven: making the choice to accept Jesus as your savior, or dying young enough not be held accountable for this choice.

If that's true, all aborted babies would go to heaven. Alternatively, if none of the babies were aborted, some would grow up to accept Jesus as their savior, and some would not. Thus, some would go to heaven, and some would go to hell.

If the overarching goal of Christianity is to get as many souls into heaven as possible, it would seem that abortion is actually aligned with that goal.

Jesus as the gate to the kingdom is doctrine, the age of accountability is not. There is no Biblical support to say that all children who die young go to heaven. There are examples of this such as David's son and Job alludes at it, but no Scripture to be dogmatic about all children.

Even if there is a case that all children go to Heaven, I think we can agree that the end does not justify the means.

[realthinker]

As I understand it, christian doctrine provides for exactly two ways to get into heaven: making the choice to accept Jesus as your savior, or dying young enough not be held accountable for this choice.

If that's true, all aborted babies would go to heaven. Alternatively, if none of the babies were aborted, some would grow up to accept Jesus as their savior, and some would not. Thus, some would go to heaven, and some would go to hell.

If the overarching goal of Christianity is to get as many souls into heaven as possible, it would seem that abortion is actually aligned with that goal.

Jesus as the gate to the kingdom is doctrine, the age of accountability is not. There is no Biblical support to say that all children who die young go to heaven. There are examples of this such as David's son and Job alludes at it, but no Scripture to be dogmatic about all children.

Even if there is a case that all children go to Heaven, I think we can agree that the end does not justify the means.

No, I'm not ready to agree.

The OP suggests two premises:

Heaven is the ultimate goal for the human soul.

Life as an accountable person is a risk of losing entry to heaven.

I think these are both consistent with the Christian message.

If you're saying that death as an unaccountable infant is not preferable to a life of sin and the risk of losing heaven, then something about life is more important than heaven. What is that? Why do you prefer life as an accountable adult to death as an innocent?

[cholland]

No, I'm not ready to agree.

The OP suggests two premises:

Heaven is the ultimate goal for the human soul.

Life as an accountable person is a risk of losing entry to heaven.

I think these are both consistent with the Christian message.

If you're saying that death as an unaccountable infant is not preferable to a life of sin and the risk of losing heaven, then something about life is more important than heaven. What is that? Why do you prefer life as an accountable adult to death as an innocent?

Your question is beside the point and you should open a new thread if you want to explore that. My statement was that the end does not justify the means. The end (Heaven) does not justify the means (killing babies).

And besides, a third premise is that everyone (including babies) is sinful from conception. So if you can point out a passage that excludes all children from being held accountable, I'm all ears.

NOTICE: I agree with the OP that all children go to heaven since they have no knowledge of their sin. However, my point is that we cannot be dogmatic about something Scripture is silent on.

[realthinker]

No, I'm not ready to agree.

The OP suggests two premises:

Heaven is the ultimate goal for the human soul.

Life as an accountable person is a risk of losing entry to heaven.

I think these are both consistent with the Christian message.

If you're saying that death as an unaccountable infant is not preferable to a life of sin and the risk of losing heaven, then something about life is more important than heaven. What is that? Why do you prefer life as an accountable adult to death as an innocent?

Your question is beside the point and you should open a new thread if you want to explore that. My statement was that the end does not justify the means. The end (Heaven) does not justify the means (killing babies).

And besides, a third premise is that everyone (including babies) is sinful from conception. So if you can point out a passage that excludes all children from being held accountable, I'm all ears.

NOTICE: I agree with the OP that all children go to heaven since they have no knowledge of their sin. However, my point is that we cannot be dogmatic about something Scripture is silent on.

I think it's exactly the point. If you cannot explain why you don't prefer innocent death to a lifetime risking loss of heavenly reward you can't really refute the OP's last statement. Why is it that christianity is all upset over abortions? Why is subjecting an innocent soul to life more preferable than a direct path to heaven?