The abortion issue

[jgh7]

This is my first time adding a poll, so hopefully it works

I notice that the issue of gay marriage is a hot topic on these forums, but people tend to skirt around abortion... Gee, I wonder why? Here's a poll, please choose one of the options even if you feel that you're "special" to the point of where none of these options describes you. Please keep in mind, This has to do only with pregnancies that are not the result of rape, are not a danger to the mother's life, and with fetuses that will not have grossly severe deformities or disabilities. I have opinions about each of these special circumstances, but I would like this topic to be about the overwhelming majority of pregnancies which don't have these problems.

Obviously you can voice your stance as well, and feel free to talk about your opinions of how religion relates to all of this... or how it shouldn't. Here's mine:

For me, my strong views about abortion coincide highly with my religious views, but I developed them before I became religious. I view life as sacred from the moment of conception. I don't care if the zef (zygote/embryo/fetus) can think, I don't care how he looks, I don't care if the mother-to-be is a teenager or not, and I don't care about the impact on society. All I care about is the zef's life, and how I define life is not based off of cognitive abilities, development of vital organs, or ability to survive outside the womb. Life is about having a future on this earth. Many people say it's no big deal because there are so many early miscarriages that we don't even realize happen, but that is an awful reason to justify the purposeful destruction of life.

The main pro-choice argument is that the mother has a right to choose since it's her body. I strongly disagree. In the cases of voluntary sex, people know the risks; even when they use protection they know there's still a risk. Even if they don't know the risks, that still does not justify killing the zef because of their ignorance. Even in the worst case scenario, where the mother is a teenager and dirt poor, I strongly believe that abortion is wrong. Life is sacred to the point of where both parents ought to be willing to sacrifice their monetary well-being as well as their personal lives/time/aspirations for the sake of letting their child live.

My faith strengthens my stance, and I'm not ashamed to admit that the only way I could feel so strongly is through my faith. After all, with a non-theistic view it's pretty easy to view life as insignificant if it's a tiny spec that doesn't think and doesn't look anything like a baby. I understand many will be offended by this, but I've seen that this is the case for many non-theists.

The final argument that usually arises is: "Isn't using protection the same as abortion, since you're preventing sperm from entering the egg?" I believe we have the right to choose when we want to create life, but we don't have the right to choose to destroy that life once it has been created. I may not know the precise time down to the second, but somewhere during the moment of conception, life is created. A sperm will not grow into a baby, and neither will an egg; only a fertilized egg. All that is left after conception is less than a year of growing until the life is born. Using protection is no more abortion than is choosing not to have sex for a certain night. Both cases mean that sperm that could have fertilized an egg was prevented from doing so. But destroying a fertilized egg is abortion, because it is killing off a human life that is growing.

These are my views. I know there are many points where people can disagree, but abortion is one thing where I have a very strong stance on, since I believe it is killing. When people are lax on their stances and say things like, "It's only for mothers to decide," it usually means that they don't view the zef as a life.

[Gonzo]

What do any of the posts on the last page have to do with abortion?

[Goat]

That is the logical fallacy known as 'Appeal to authority'.

It's an appeal to someone who was there living through those times. I guess you're going to ignore it.

It is a political statement to be sure.. but he is a physicist and not a historian.

Funny how you don't value historians when it's Tacitus mentioning Jesus.

as for your quotes... surprise surprise, surprise, it source is 'table talk'

So what?

I see you are evading, and you are also not countering the fact that Table Talk is not a reliable source.

There are a lot of people who lived through those time, that just so happen to disagree with Einstein on Nazism and Catholicism. What Einstein did for political reasons is no concern.

What matters is reality.. and you aren't giving a good show that your arguments match it.

[Tuff]

This has to do only with pregnancies that are not the result of rape, are not a danger to the mother's life, and with fetuses that will not have grossly severe deformities or disabilities.

With that said - pro life.

My main issue I have with full fledged pro lifers is many of them support having a baby in the instance of a rape, and give it up for adoption. I cannot bring myself to agree that someone should be forced to possibly ruin their life raising something they didn't choose to have. Giving birth and then giving it up for adoption is devastating for a young girl (how young obviously depends). Is it murder? I guess technically, but I play the "it isn't a life that understands things such as pain and emotion quite yet" which makes my decision easier. I have no problem with people who abort a child who will be clearly massively disfigured either. If I knew my kid was gonna be born with no arms, I'd rather them not experience life that way. That's just me though.

The general just abortions because two 17 yr olds "dn't want a kid for a few more years" - not in favor of that.

[Gonzo]

This has to do only with pregnancies that are not the result of rape, are not a danger to the mother's life, and with fetuses that will not have grossly severe deformities or disabilities.

With that said - pro life.

My main issue I have with full fledged pro lifers is many of them support having a baby in the instance of a rape, and give it up for adoption. I cannot bring myself to agree that someone should be forced to possibly ruin their life raising something they didn't choose to have. Giving birth and then giving it up for adoption is devastating for a young girl (how young obviously depends). Is it murder? I guess technically, but I play the "it isn't a life that understands things such as pain and emotion quite yet" which makes my decision easier. I have no problem with people who abort a child who will be clearly massively disfigured either. If I knew my kid was gonna be born with no arms, I'd rather them not experience life that way. That's just me though.

The general just abortions because two 17 yr olds "dn't want a kid for a few more years" - not in favor of that.

Regarding the underlined, how about if a kid were to experience life with an unprepared mother and father, who perhaps have no means of supporting said child because they were kicked out of their homes, would you want a child to experience life that way?

Or what if the parents are going to walk out on the child (one or both), or perhaps plan on leaving it in a dumpster if they can't get an abortion. Or are abusive to the child because it "ruined their lives" (from the parents' perspective). How about those experiences?

[East of Eden]

I see you are evading, and you are also not countering the fact that Table Talk is not a reliable source.

Your opinion. I think it is reliable, and is consistent with other anti-Christian quotes others have cited, and with Hitler's actions.

Which teachings of Jesus was Hitler following?

There are a lot of people who lived through those time, that just so happen to disagree with Einstein on Nazism and Catholicism. What Einstein did for political reasons is no concern.

Do you have proof he said that for political reasons, or did you just make it up?

[East of Eden]

Regarding the underlined, how about if a kid were to experience life with an unprepared mother and father, who perhaps have no means of supporting said child because they were kicked out of their homes, would you want a child to experience life that way?

Is any parent really prepared for a child? By this reasoning our president would have been a good candidate for abortion, being abandoned by his 'father' and left with a young, broke mother.

Or what if the parents are going to walk out on the child (one or both), or perhaps plan on leaving it in a dumpster if they can't get an abortion.

Dumpster or abortion, both are bad.

Or are abusive to the child because it "ruined their lives" (from the parents' perspective). How about those experiences?

Give it up for adoption. Many US parents have to go overseas because of the shortage of babies available for abortion.

Pro-abortion people: Please take a look at this video and tell me what you think. Part 2 can be seen at the right side.

[Goat]

I see you are evading, and you are also not countering the fact that Table Talk is not a reliable source.

Your opinion. I think it is reliable, and is consistent with other anti-Christian quotes others have cited, and with Hitler's actions.

Which teachings of Jesus was Hitler following?

"Bring me my enemies before me, and slay them"

And, no, table talk is very suspect.

[East of Eden]

I see you are evading, and you are also not countering the fact that Table Talk is not a reliable source.

Your opinion. I think it is reliable, and is consistent with other anti-Christian quotes others have cited, and with Hitler's actions.

Which teachings of Jesus was Hitler following?

"Bring me my enemies before me, and slay them"

Another out of context misreading. Funny how the rest of Christianity missed this 'commandment'.

This is a reference to the final judgement, although some have speculated it to refer to Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70. The punishment of those who rebelled and actively opposed the king (see Luke 19:14) was much more severe than that of the negligent servant. You might want to take a lesson from that.

[Goat]

I see you are evading, and you are also not countering the fact that Table Talk is not a reliable source.

Your opinion. I think it is reliable, and is consistent with other anti-Christian quotes others have cited, and with Hitler's actions.

Which teachings of Jesus was Hitler following?

"Bring me my enemies before me, and slay them"

Another out of context misreading. Funny how the rest of Christianity missed this 'commandment'.

This is a reference to the final judgement, although some have speculated it to refer to Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70. The punishment of those who rebelled and actively opposed the king (see Luke 19:14) was much more severe than that of the negligent servant. You might want to take a lesson from that.

I love how when that is brought up, and people claim 'it's only a parable'... or 'out of context'... yet won't discuss what that statement is talking about, or talk about what it means.

Seems like to me that more CHristianity have not missed this 'commandment' as much as you think.

Ever hear of the auto de fe?

[Gonzo]

Is any parent really prepared for a child? By this reasoning our president would have been a good candidate for abortion, being abandoned by his 'father' and left with a young, broke mother.

Some are more prepared then others. For example a married couple trying to get pregnant and raise a family versus an irresponsible 12 year old and her 15 year old boyfriend who find out they are going to be parents.

I'm not saying all in the scenario end up with terrible lives, but I would think a large portion of them have a terrible experience for a portion if not all of their lives.

Dumpster or abortion, both are bad.

Which is worse? And which can be avoided by the other?

Give it up for adoption. Many US parents have to go overseas because of the shortage of babies available for abortion.

Ah yes, poor them. What about the 120,00 children in the U.S. that wait for adoption every year? http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/stat ... trends.htm

What is your opinion on the abortion of a deformed baby?