Is Socialism Moral? Especially, Christian?

[Purple Knight]

The question for debate is whether a socialist system is closer to how Jesus intended people to behave than a capitalist one.

The sub-question is for those who think socialism is moral whether that was inspired by religion or not: If a country's laws were very close to what Jesus (or your morality) taught, but as a consequence, the country was a very bad place to live, would you move there? For example, a country that has a lot of assault because it is a law that you turn the other cheek and don't hit back, and you'll be punished for retaliating. Or a country where ministers roam around, imbued with legal authority, and they decide when you must sell all your possessions and give to the poor, including your house and car.

It's very easy to have high morals when the consequences are less present because the system you happen to live in works to protect you from them. Is there something extra moral about choosing to live where the system doesn't do that? Or is it just foolish? Because perhaps the goal is to have and hold the highest morals possible and if you've been given an ivory tower with which to protect them, that's simply a logical choice to achieve maximum morality.

[oldbadger]

Do you even believe what you claim about Jesus? Is Jesus also angry with you for not selling all your goods and giving the proceeds to the poor?

Do you realise that every time you start a question including the word 'even', as in the above, you give away so much about yourself?

As to your question: Do I believe what I claim about Jesus?
Answer: I have the greatest respect for what Jesus said and did, but I am thinking that you might not.

Do you believe what Jesus said and did, or do you search frantically for some other account about him that suits you better?

Again: It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven (Matt 19:24)

[marke]

Do you even believe what you claim about Jesus? Is Jesus also angry with you for not selling all your goods and giving the proceeds to the poor?

Do you realise that every time you start a question including the word 'even', as in the above, you give away so much about yourself?

As to your question: Do I believe what I claim about Jesus?
Answer: I have the greatest respect for what Jesus said and did, but I am thinking that you might not.

Do you believe what Jesus said and did, or do you search frantically for some other account about him that suits you better?

Again: It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven (Matt 19:24)

Democrats beat their dead horse rich man through the needle narrative while refusing to give a dime of their hoarded millions to the poor they claim Jesus wants Christians to give all their money to.

[oldbadger]

Democrats beat their dead horse rich man through the needle narrative while refusing to give a dime of their hoarded millions to the poor they claim Jesus wants Christians to give all their money to.

It's no use you moaning about what other people do. That's how some bad people try by pointing to thieves, sex criminals or murderers. Etc.

No ... If Christians don't live in the same spirit and ways as Jesus (who is their God?) then they don't look much like Christians imo.

[William]

[Replying to marke in post #79]

Sin and corruption exist in every society, regardless of the economic system. The real question is: Does capitalism incentivize and reward corruption? When corporations exploit workers, rig financial markets, and lobby politicians for policies that serve the wealthy, that isnt just individual sinits a system designed to concentrate power. Wouldnt a system that prioritizes worker well-being over corporate greed reduce corruption, rather than enable it?

People choosing to stay in America doesnt prove capitalism is morally superiorit simply shows that people prefer familiar conditions to uncertainty. Historically, oppressed people have remained in exploitative systems because they see no viable alternative, not because the system is just. The real question isnt whether people tolerate capitalism, but whether it actually serves the common good.

Youre shifting the conversation from economic systems to vague moral failings, but you havent addressed my critique of capitalism or my argument for worker-driven socialism. Can you explain why an economy controlled by corporate elites is preferable to one where workers democratically control production? Or is the core issue going to be continually avoided?

[Athetotheist]

Why doesn't communism work? Because communism concentrates power in the hands of a few at the top, making it top-down government, and top-down power structures don't work?

Okay.

Capitalism is top-down economics.

[William]

Why doesn't communism work?

Communism doesnt work because it has never actually been realized. Every historical attempt has been obstructedeither by state socialism, capitalist resistance, or internal power struggles. Rather than serving as a transition to economic democratization, socialist states have often solidified into bureaucratic structures that block further progress.

The real question isnt Why doesnt communism work? but rather, Why hasnt communism been allowed to work? If the ruling class resists economic democratization and socialist governments entrench themselves in centralized control instead of transitioning power to the workers, then true communism is never even attempted.

Until these barrierswhether from capitalist elites or bureaucratic socialist statesare removed, we wont know whether communism can work because its never been given the chance.

Because communism concentrates power in the hands of a few at the top, making it top-down government, and top-down power structures don't work?

Okay.

Capitalism is top-down economics.

Thats a misunderstanding of what communism is supposed to be. The claim that communism is inherently top-down comes from historical state socialist regimes that misrepresented themselves as communist. In reality, true communismif properly implementedwould be a bottom-up system where workers collectively manage resources and production, without a ruling class.

Past regimes claiming to be communist became authoritarian because they never actually implemented communism. Instead, they imposed centralized state control, which is just another form of elite poweressentially capitalism with different rulers.

Youre right that capitalism is top-downit concentrates wealth and decision-making power in the hands of a small elite. But actualized communism would dismantle that structure, ensuring that power is distributed among the people rather than concentrated in the state or corporate class.

The real issue isnt communism concentrates power at the topits that every attempt to move toward communal democracy has been co-opted before it could fully develop.

The real question is: What prevents a true communal democracy from forming, whether under capitalism or state socialism?

[marke]

Democrats beat their dead horse rich man through the needle narrative while refusing to give a dime of their hoarded millions to the poor they claim Jesus wants Christians to give all their money to.

It's no use you moaning about what other people do. That's how some bad people try by pointing to thieves, sex criminals or murderers. Etc.

No ... If Christians don't live in the same spirit and ways as Jesus (who is their God?) then they don't look much like Christians imo.

The majority of those who falsely accuse poor Christians of refusing to help the poor are those who never give a dime of their own hoarded wealth to help the poor.

Romans 15:26
For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

[marke]

Why doesn't communism work? Because communism concentrates power in the hands of a few at the top, making it top-down government, and top-down power structures don't work?

Okay.

Capitalism is top-down economics.

Communists steal the earned wealth of capitalist workers to fund themselves and their leftist agenda.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #88]

Communists steal the earned wealth of capitalist workers to fund themselves and their leftist agenda.

How are communists stealing the earned wealth of capitalist workers when the earned wealth of capitalist workers goes to make capitalist owners wealthy?

[oldbadger]

The majority of those who falsely accuse poor Christians of refusing to help the poor are those who never give a dime of their own hoarded wealth to help the poor.

And you've got that wrong.
It is the RICH Christians who should be helping the poor...how can you get that so wrong?!
It's no good for careless Christians to point to pagans who might be greedy because Christians are supposed to follow the example of Jesus... not pagans!

Romans 15:26
For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Look at that, the Macedonians and Achaians making contributions to the poor of Jerusalem... How kind!
Even they would look down on fat rich Christians who grasp their dollars to themselves like Scrooges.