The Gay agenda

[lastcallhall]

This is an article from Jim Daly on Foxnews and it looks like what a few of us conservative christians believe is the gay agenda moving forward to get marriage passed.

I am, naturally, personally opposed to the legalization of same-sex marriage for the simple but profound reason that it violates and contradicts the sacred text of the Bible, which I believe to be true and inspired. But on what basis should I expect people who dont believe as I do to likewise oppose same-sex marriage?

On the basis of logic, reason, common sense and the fact that preservation of traditional marriage is in the best interest of the common good, as evidenced by any number of factors, including reams of social science data and thousands of years of history.

Any discussion on the definition of marriage incites strong emotional reaction. And those of us within the orthodox Christian community understand that many in the culture see this issue very differently, and hold to very passionate views on the subject. We understand that on this matter, in some circles, that never the twain shall meet. Nevertheless, this difference of opinion does not preclude us the privilege of championing a principle we hold dear, especially since its our Christian faith that motivates us to support and defend what we believe to be Gods blueprint for human relationship. In the last half-century, progressives have exercised their own rights of cultural engagement, aggressively championing sweeping cultural changes on numerous levels. Although we may disagree with them, we certainly dont begrudge them the right to engage the process. But in this pursuit to redefine marriage, wouldnt it make sense to consider the outcomes of prior social reengineering efforts?

In the late 1960s, no-fault divorce promised to simplify, streamline and decrease the contentiousness surrounding marital breakup. Instead, it only encouraged struggling spouses to throw in the towel. Fathers abandoned their families in droves. Poverty levels skyrocketed. Prison populations increased at dramatic levels, a consequence of kids now growing up without a father in the home.

A few years later, in 1973, the Supreme Court legalized abortion in all 50 states. Supporters heralded a new era of responsibility, where every child would be a wanted child. Tragically, over 48 million babies have now been aborted and the beauty of life has been cheapened as a result, while child abuse has skyrocketed.

The expansion of welfare promised to alleviate human suffering. While in some ways noble in intent, it disincentivized work, undermined the family unit and created a perpetual cycle of dependency and poverty. Fathers were no longer needed to be an integral part of the family.

Cohabitation is yet another experiment which promised to liberate couples from the burden of marriage. The number of couples living together outside of marriage has increased ten-fold between 1960 and 2000. Over 12 million unmarried partners now live together in the United States. The result? Cohabitation not only decreases a persons appetite for marriage, it also increases the risk of divorce, should the couple ever tie the knot.

Further, a home with two unmarried partners has proven to be the most dangerous place for children in the U.S. Children who live with their mother and boyfriend are 11 times more likely to be sexually, physically, or emotionally abused than children living with their married biological parents.

In each example of social reengineering Ive noted, progressives promised good things. Sadly, the exact opposite has happened. However well-meaning the motivation, reengineering what God has designed is not only unwise, but radical and dangerous, too.

Without evidence of success to which to point, supporters of these ill-fated ventures are left with but one choice: If you cant change unfavorable outcomes, you change the minds of people as to what is considered favorable and good.

Here lies the last great frontier and the last gasp for those determined to re-engineer marriage. Those committed to this form of radicalism have systematically broken down the cultural barrier to same sex marriage by desensitizing people on the issue, stigmatizing those who oppose the movement and potentially criminalizing anyone who stands in opposition to them. The irony in our cultural discussion currently, is if you support traditional marriage, you are the one perceived by the cultural elite to be the radical.

Consider the case of a New Mexico couple who own and operate a photography business. When they kindly refused to shoot a lesbian marriage ceremony, they were summarily brought up on human rights violations by the New Mexico Human Rights Commission. They were fined for not accepting the job. While on the other hand, Christian organizations are now being singled out and suppliers are threatening to no longer supply them with critical support functions like computer technology because of their stand in opposition to same-sex marriage. Those in favor of same-sex marriage do not see the contradiction in these two examples. One group must perform the services and is fined for not doing so (in the name of human rights); the other is allowed to default on their contract because of alleged bigoted behavior on the part of the religious organization (with no regard for religious expression).

If religious liberty is lost in America, we will cease to be the nation our Founders intended us to be. Our rights will no longer be derived from God but from man, and therefore, dangerously beholden to political despots. I dont think Thomas Jefferson intended that to be the outcome for our great nation when he wrote the famous Danbury Baptist Church letter which mentioned the separation of church and state. Contrary to conventional wisdom, President Jefferson was expressing a concern that the church needed to be protected from the state, not the state from the church. It appears his fears are now being realized.

Jim Daly is president and host of "Focus on the Family."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/ ... z1NJdkc5AN


The questions I have for debate are:

1. Is what happened to the New Mexico couple proof that gay marriage will threaten christians and the church from living our faith?

2. If gay marriage is legal in the entire US would churches be forced to recognize gay couples and be forced to hire gay people to positions even if that would be against our beliefs?

[riverslivnwtr]

and BTW Jesus' claims are supported by the very Spirit that raised him from the dead which abides in me to this day...

Wow, more unsupported claims.

Can you provide evidence beyond saying 'The bible says so, I feel it, and therefore it's true' that Jesus was raised from the dead?

No one is asking you to believe because I do..I am simply a witness of his resurrection..

Really?? Were you there, or are you just a believer that had an emotional feeling that you are attrributting to Jesus' resurrection. Let's see you show some evidence, rather than blind claims.

It is common for man to measure his life as the normal lifetime most people are privilaged to enjoy..in your lifetime I came along and declared eternal life to you...
Eternal life is eternal..it is not measured in time..you called it an emotional feeling..
I am witness that the Words of a man spoken 2000 years ago are real. Those words which he said are a rare experience for many who believe in him and call him Lord...Jesus will not step out of character and reveal himself in any way except that which is proclaimed in the bible..

I have given you my word. Just as the prophets before me..and many witnesses..
some are not credible ...I cannot change that but discredit them who are obviously even abundantly clear not come from Christ..

[riverslivnwtr]

No one is asking you to believe because I do..I am simply a witness of his resurrection..

Why debate?

You are not a witness to Jesus' resurrection. That is alleged to have happened before you were born. You are witness to an inner feeling that you have experienced and have attributed to the Holy Spirit promised in a book. That's all.

I was crucified with Christ..
nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ lives in me..
knowing that I am a new creature by the faith of him, I am able to declare that he was crucified for my sins.. because I am separated from them, my sins..

:D/

[Goat]

and BTW Jesus' claims are supported by the very Spirit that raised him from the dead which abides in me to this day...

Wow, more unsupported claims.

Can you provide evidence beyond saying 'The bible says so, I feel it, and therefore it's true' that Jesus was raised from the dead?

No one is asking you to believe because I do..I am simply a witness of his resurrection..

Really?? Were you there, or are you just a believer that had an emotional feeling that you are attrributting to Jesus' resurrection. Let's see you show some evidence, rather than blind claims.

It is common for man to measure his life as the normal lifetime most people are privilaged to enjoy..in your lifetime I came along and declared eternal life to you...
Eternal life is eternal..it is not measured in time..you called it an emotional feeling..
I am witness that the Words of a man spoken 2000 years ago are real. Those words which he said are a rare experience for many who believe in him and call him Lord...Jesus will not step out of character and reveal himself in any way except that which is proclaimed in the bible..

I have given you my word. Just as the prophets before me..and many witnesses..
some are not credible ...I cannot change that but discredit them who are obviously even abundantly clear not come from Christ..

You declared 'eternal life' to me. Can you provide evidence for this? Your 'word' is not enough. You keep on making unsupported claims, repeatedly

Care to back it up with something more that 'This book says so' , or 'I say so'?

Can you show that these words you believe were spoken by a man 2000 years ago are factual?

[riverslivnwtr]

and BTW Jesus' claims are supported by the very Spirit that raised him from the dead which abides in me to this day...

Wow, more unsupported claims.

Can you provide evidence beyond saying 'The bible says so, I feel it, and therefore it's true' that Jesus was raised from the dead?

No one is asking you to believe because I do..I am simply a witness of his resurrection..

Really?? Were you there, or are you just a believer that had an emotional feeling that you are attrributting to Jesus' resurrection. Let's see you show some evidence, rather than blind claims.

It is common for man to measure his life as the normal lifetime most people are privilaged to enjoy..in your lifetime I came along and declared eternal life to you...
Eternal life is eternal..it is not measured in time..you called it an emotional feeling..
I am witness that the Words of a man spoken 2000 years ago are real. Those words which he said are a rare experience for many who believe in him and call him Lord...Jesus will not step out of character and reveal himself in any way except that which is proclaimed in the bible..

I have given you my word. Just as the prophets before me..and many witnesses..
some are not credible ...I cannot change that but discredit them who are obviously even abundantly clear not come from Christ..

You declared 'eternal life' to me. Can you provide evidence for this? Your 'word' is not enough. You keep on making unsupported claims, repeatedly

Care to back it up with something more that 'This book says so' , or 'I say so'?

Can you show that these words you believe were spoken by a man 2000 years ago are factual?

The Kingdom of God has always depended on words....the worlds were framed by God's words.. when he adopted me, I began with words and have continued ..I live by my words , for they also have the life of my Father which is in heaven.
I am witness. Christ dwells in me.

let me also remind you that many times people are sent to prison or to death by words, it is the Holy Spirit Himself, who collaborates my words.

[McCulloch]

The Kingdom of God has always depended on words.

What is the Kingdom of God? Can you demonstrate that such a thing exists?

The worlds were framed by God's words.

How do you know this? Can you demonstrate that any world was framed by the words of any god? If not, please refrain from making unsupported claims in the debate forums.

When he [God] adopted me,

Can you show that God adopted you or anyone else? Did you really mean to say, "When I felt that God adopted me"?

It is the Holy Spirit Himself, who collaborates my words.

The Holy Spirit collaborates nothing. He does not post here nor can it be shown with any degree of certainty that the Holy Spirit has communicated anything to anyone. How is what you claim any different from, "What I say agrees with what is in the Bible, which I believe, without support, is from the Holy Spirit of God and I have a really great feeling, which I also believe, without support, is from the Holy Spirit, that this is true and from God. "?

[Clownboat]

and BTW Jesus' claims are supported by the very Spirit that raised him from the dead which abides in me to this day...

Wow, more unsupported claims.

Can you provide evidence beyond saying 'The bible says so, I feel it, and therefore it's true' that Jesus was raised from the dead?

No one is asking you to believe because I do..I am simply a witness of his resurrection..

Really?? Were you there, or are you just a believer that had an emotional feeling that you are attrributting to Jesus' resurrection. Let's see you show some evidence, rather than blind claims.

It is common for man to measure his life as the normal lifetime most people are privilaged to enjoy..in your lifetime I came along and declared eternal life to you...
Eternal life is eternal..it is not measured in time..you called it an emotional feeling..
I am witness that the Words of a man spoken 2000 years ago are real. Those words which he said are a rare experience for many who believe in him and call him Lord...Jesus will not step out of character and reveal himself in any way except that which is proclaimed in the bible..

I have given you my word. Just as the prophets before me..and many witnesses..
some are not credible ...I cannot change that but discredit them who are obviously even abundantly clear not come from Christ..

You declared 'eternal life' to me. Can you provide evidence for this? Your 'word' is not enough. You keep on making unsupported claims, repeatedly

Care to back it up with something more that 'This book says so' , or 'I say so'?

Can you show that these words you believe were spoken by a man 2000 years ago are factual?

The Kingdom of God has always depended on words....the worlds were framed by God's words.. when he adopted me, I began with words and have continued ..I live by my words , for they also have the life of my Father which is in heaven.
I am witness. Christ dwells in me.

let me also remind you that many times people are sent to prison or to death by words, it is the Holy Spirit Himself, who collaborates my words.

If you were being lead by a God, you would be honorable and would follow the rules of this forum that you agreed to when you signed up. Even atheists on this board can follow the rules, and yet you are unable.
So I cannot believe that your claims are true, just because you say they are true. Could you believe un-evidenced claims from a person that shows little honor or integrity. I would think you would be unable as well (like me).

Honor seems to escape you as you continue to show with each post, and that would not be the case if you were filled with the Holy Spirit in my opinion.

At this point, I must assume that if anything, you are a false prophet being lead by Satan in order to lead those on the fence astray. (Or, there is no god, and you just delusional).

I'm truly sorry that you are incapable of participating in our conversations, as I would love to hear some honest answers from you, but like you continue to prove, we should not get our hopes up.

[riverslivnwtr]

and BTW Jesus' claims are supported by the very Spirit that raised him from the dead which abides in me to this day...

Wow, more unsupported claims.

Can you provide evidence beyond saying 'The bible says so, I feel it, and therefore it's true' that Jesus was raised from the dead?

No one is asking you to believe because I do..I am simply a witness of his resurrection..

Really?? Were you there, or are you just a believer that had an emotional feeling that you are attrributting to Jesus' resurrection. Let's see you show some evidence, rather than blind claims.

It is common for man to measure his life as the normal lifetime most people are privilaged to enjoy..in your lifetime I came along and declared eternal life to you...
Eternal life is eternal..it is not measured in time..you called it an emotional feeling..
I am witness that the Words of a man spoken 2000 years ago are real. Those words which he said are a rare experience for many who believe in him and call him Lord...Jesus will not step out of character and reveal himself in any way except that which is proclaimed in the bible..

I have given you my word. Just as the prophets before me..and many witnesses..
some are not credible ...I cannot change that but discredit them who are obviously even abundantly clear not come from Christ..

You declared 'eternal life' to me. Can you provide evidence for this? Your 'word' is not enough. You keep on making unsupported claims, repeatedly

Care to back it up with something more that 'This book says so' , or 'I say so'?

Can you show that these words you believe were spoken by a man 2000 years ago are factual?

The Kingdom of God has always depended on words....the worlds were framed by God's words.. when he adopted me, I began with words and have continued ..I live by my words , for they also have the life of my Father which is in heaven.
I am witness. Christ dwells in me.

let me also remind you that many times people are sent to prison or to death by words, it is the Holy Spirit Himself, who collaborates my words.

If you were being lead by a God, you would be honorable and would follow the rules of this forum that you agreed to when you signed up. Even atheists on this board can follow the rules, and yet you are unable.
So I cannot believe that your claims are true, just because you say they are true. Could you believe un-evidenced claims from a person that shows little honor or integrity. I would think you would be unable as well (like me).

Honor seems to escape you as you continue to show with each post, and that would not be the case if you were filled with the Holy Spirit in my opinion.

At this point, I must assume that if anything, you are a false prophet being lead by Satan in order to lead those on the fence astray. (Or, there is no god, and you just delusional).

I'm truly sorry that you are incapable of participating in our conversations, as I would love to hear some honest answers from you, but like you continue to prove, we should not get our hopes up.

what rules are you talking about?

[Clownboat]

and BTW Jesus' claims are supported by the very Spirit that raised him from the dead which abides in me to this day...

Wow, more unsupported claims.

Can you provide evidence beyond saying 'The bible says so, I feel it, and therefore it's true' that Jesus was raised from the dead?

No one is asking you to believe because I do..I am simply a witness of his resurrection..

Really?? Were you there, or are you just a believer that had an emotional feeling that you are attrributting to Jesus' resurrection. Let's see you show some evidence, rather than blind claims.

It is common for man to measure his life as the normal lifetime most people are privilaged to enjoy..in your lifetime I came along and declared eternal life to you...
Eternal life is eternal..it is not measured in time..you called it an emotional feeling..
I am witness that the Words of a man spoken 2000 years ago are real. Those words which he said are a rare experience for many who believe in him and call him Lord...Jesus will not step out of character and reveal himself in any way except that which is proclaimed in the bible..

I have given you my word. Just as the prophets before me..and many witnesses..
some are not credible ...I cannot change that but discredit them who are obviously even abundantly clear not come from Christ..

You declared 'eternal life' to me. Can you provide evidence for this? Your 'word' is not enough. You keep on making unsupported claims, repeatedly

Care to back it up with something more that 'This book says so' , or 'I say so'?

Can you show that these words you believe were spoken by a man 2000 years ago are factual?

The Kingdom of God has always depended on words....the worlds were framed by God's words.. when he adopted me, I began with words and have continued ..I live by my words , for they also have the life of my Father which is in heaven.
I am witness. Christ dwells in me.

let me also remind you that many times people are sent to prison or to death by words, it is the Holy Spirit Himself, who collaborates my words.

If you were being lead by a God, you would be honorable and would follow the rules of this forum that you agreed to when you signed up. Even atheists on this board can follow the rules, and yet you are unable.
So I cannot believe that your claims are true, just because you say they are true. Could you believe un-evidenced claims from a person that shows little honor or integrity. I would think you would be unable as well (like me).

Honor seems to escape you as you continue to show with each post, and that would not be the case if you were filled with the Holy Spirit in my opinion.

At this point, I must assume that if anything, you are a false prophet being lead by Satan in order to lead those on the fence astray. (Or, there is no god, and you just delusional).

I'm truly sorry that you are incapable of participating in our conversations, as I would love to hear some honest answers from you, but like you continue to prove, we should not get our hopes up.

what rules are you talking about?

Let's start with #5 for now:
5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not make blanket statements that are not supportable by logic/evidence.

[riverslivnwtr]

and BTW Jesus' claims are supported by the very Spirit that raised him from the dead which abides in me to this day...

Wow, more unsupported claims.

Can you provide evidence beyond saying 'The bible says so, I feel it, and therefore it's true' that Jesus was raised from the dead?

No one is asking you to believe because I do..I am simply a witness of his resurrection..

Really?? Were you there, or are you just a believer that had an emotional feeling that you are attrributting to Jesus' resurrection. Let's see you show some evidence, rather than blind claims.

It is common for man to measure his life as the normal lifetime most people are privilaged to enjoy..in your lifetime I came along and declared eternal life to you...
Eternal life is eternal..it is not measured in time..you called it an emotional feeling..
I am witness that the Words of a man spoken 2000 years ago are real. Those words which he said are a rare experience for many who believe in him and call him Lord...Jesus will not step out of character and reveal himself in any way except that which is proclaimed in the bible..

I have given you my word. Just as the prophets before me..and many witnesses..
some are not credible ...I cannot change that but discredit them who are obviously even abundantly clear not come from Christ..

You declared 'eternal life' to me. Can you provide evidence for this? Your 'word' is not enough. You keep on making unsupported claims, repeatedly

Care to back it up with something more that 'This book says so' , or 'I say so'?

Can you show that these words you believe were spoken by a man 2000 years ago are factual?

The Kingdom of God has always depended on words....the worlds were framed by God's words.. when he adopted me, I began with words and have continued ..I live by my words , for they also have the life of my Father which is in heaven.
I am witness. Christ dwells in me.

let me also remind you that many times people are sent to prison or to death by words, it is the Holy Spirit Himself, who collaborates my words.

If you were being lead by a God, you would be honorable and would follow the rules of this forum that you agreed to when you signed up. Even atheists on this board can follow the rules, and yet you are unable.
So I cannot believe that your claims are true, just because you say they are true. Could you believe un-evidenced claims from a person that shows little honor or integrity. I would think you would be unable as well (like me).

Honor seems to escape you as you continue to show with each post, and that would not be the case if you were filled with the Holy Spirit in my opinion.

At this point, I must assume that if anything, you are a false prophet being lead by Satan in order to lead those on the fence astray. (Or, there is no god, and you just delusional).

I'm truly sorry that you are incapable of participating in our conversations, as I would love to hear some honest answers from you, but like you continue to prove, we should not get our hopes up.

what rules are you talking about?

Let's start with #5 for now:
5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not make blanket statements that are not supportable by logic/evidence.

everything I posted is logical..
I am the experiment itself...

it is logical if I fulfill the requirements stated in the bible, that certain promises will be fulfilled if I observe to do what is required..If I tell you that it worked..then you only have my word...but I also include the Holy Spirit as my witness...no I don't expect him to post here by I do expect what I have said, will speak to the heart of the hearer or reader.. The door is opened for the Holy Spirit..
who performs whatever he pleases whenever....but if I never declare him he never will, without a witness..The bible calls him the Spirit of truth...which means he only moves on that which is true...

[Goat]

The Kingdom of God has always depended on words....the worlds were framed by God's words.. when he adopted me, I began with words and have continued ..I live by my words , for they also have the life of my Father which is in heaven.
I am witness. Christ dwells in me.

let me also remind you that many times people are sent to prison or to death by words, it is the Holy Spirit Himself, who collaborates my words.

So you have said, repeatedly.

What I have been asking is for you to substantiate your claim. Provide evidence for this, rather than go into preach mode.