The abortion issue

[jgh7]

This is my first time adding a poll, so hopefully it works

I notice that the issue of gay marriage is a hot topic on these forums, but people tend to skirt around abortion... Gee, I wonder why? Here's a poll, please choose one of the options even if you feel that you're "special" to the point of where none of these options describes you. Please keep in mind, This has to do only with pregnancies that are not the result of rape, are not a danger to the mother's life, and with fetuses that will not have grossly severe deformities or disabilities. I have opinions about each of these special circumstances, but I would like this topic to be about the overwhelming majority of pregnancies which don't have these problems.

Obviously you can voice your stance as well, and feel free to talk about your opinions of how religion relates to all of this... or how it shouldn't. Here's mine:

For me, my strong views about abortion coincide highly with my religious views, but I developed them before I became religious. I view life as sacred from the moment of conception. I don't care if the zef (zygote/embryo/fetus) can think, I don't care how he looks, I don't care if the mother-to-be is a teenager or not, and I don't care about the impact on society. All I care about is the zef's life, and how I define life is not based off of cognitive abilities, development of vital organs, or ability to survive outside the womb. Life is about having a future on this earth. Many people say it's no big deal because there are so many early miscarriages that we don't even realize happen, but that is an awful reason to justify the purposeful destruction of life.

The main pro-choice argument is that the mother has a right to choose since it's her body. I strongly disagree. In the cases of voluntary sex, people know the risks; even when they use protection they know there's still a risk. Even if they don't know the risks, that still does not justify killing the zef because of their ignorance. Even in the worst case scenario, where the mother is a teenager and dirt poor, I strongly believe that abortion is wrong. Life is sacred to the point of where both parents ought to be willing to sacrifice their monetary well-being as well as their personal lives/time/aspirations for the sake of letting their child live.

My faith strengthens my stance, and I'm not ashamed to admit that the only way I could feel so strongly is through my faith. After all, with a non-theistic view it's pretty easy to view life as insignificant if it's a tiny spec that doesn't think and doesn't look anything like a baby. I understand many will be offended by this, but I've seen that this is the case for many non-theists.

The final argument that usually arises is: "Isn't using protection the same as abortion, since you're preventing sperm from entering the egg?" I believe we have the right to choose when we want to create life, but we don't have the right to choose to destroy that life once it has been created. I may not know the precise time down to the second, but somewhere during the moment of conception, life is created. A sperm will not grow into a baby, and neither will an egg; only a fertilized egg. All that is left after conception is less than a year of growing until the life is born. Using protection is no more abortion than is choosing not to have sex for a certain night. Both cases mean that sperm that could have fertilized an egg was prevented from doing so. But destroying a fertilized egg is abortion, because it is killing off a human life that is growing.

These are my views. I know there are many points where people can disagree, but abortion is one thing where I have a very strong stance on, since I believe it is killing. When people are lax on their stances and say things like, "It's only for mothers to decide," it usually means that they don't view the zef as a life.

[East of Eden]

A person is a person no matter how small.

It is not the size which defines personhood. I have a problem attributing legal personhood to an entity with no more cognitive ability than a fish.

Do you want to euthanize mentally handicapped people also? Altheimer's patients?

[catalyst]

What I found most interesting about the stats User123 posted a link to, was that the MAJORITY of willfull medically aided terminations were actually performed on women who were either Catholic: 31.3% or Protestant: 37.4%, 1.3% by Jews, a combined total of 5% performed because of rape or incest;fetal abnormalities; due to the mother's health problems (1%, 1% + 3% respectively), leaving a percentage of 25% being performed on women either non religious or following religions other than the aforementioned.

In total though the statistics show that the MAJORITY of women actually opting FOR willfull medically aided terminations, were in fact of Christian denomination. Of that 38.7%, 18% specifically "named" themselves as being "born again" or evangelical christians.

Anyway to EoE's comments:

goat wrote:Abortion is not a crime. It is not murder

To which EoE replied: That is your opinion. Generally when an innocent life is taken, it is murder.

Then it looks like lke the MAJORITY of these "murderers" are in the church pew next to you.

goat wrote:It is entirely legal.

EOE replied: So was slavery. The atrocities done by Hitler and Stalin had legal sanction for the most part.

Yes, slavery was legal and in his purported time, bible jesus not only condoned the act but also gave "tips" as to how to punish them. As to Stalin and Hitler.. yes thank you BOTH of them "of faith" (Stalin Orthodox xian and Hitler, catholic turned Martin Luther fan). Thank you for pointing out these atrocities.

Now Eoe, just a guess here but given your quite sterile *cough* comments I have to jump to the conclusion that you are male, TO take offense at my comment of:

It is ridiculous to say men have no say in this matter.

Just WHY is it ridiculous for me to say AS A WOMAN, a man has no right to determine what I personally want to do with my own body?

Elaborate and validate.

[catalyst]

A person is a person no matter how small.

It is not the size which defines personhood. I have a problem attributing legal personhood to an entity with no more cognitive ability than a fish.

Do you want to euthanize mentally handicapped people also? Altheimer's patients?

Frankly, I am disgusted and offended by the comment made by East Of Eden as it appears that he/she??( I will presume HE) is equating the cognitive skills of a fish with (his words) "mentally handicapped" PEOPLE and those with Alzheimers.

The ONLY "handicap" I see here is their (EoE's) ignorance.

I AM ******* APPALLED!

BTW to any mod or admin deciding it is warranted to give me a warning or probation for the language or my comment, then do so.

But from where I sit, I am more than happy to cop it. Their **** was completely uncalled for.

[East of Eden]

What I found most interesting about the stats User123 posted a link to, was that the MAJORITY of willfull medically aided terminations were actually performed on women who were either Catholic: 31.3% or Protestant: 37.4%, 1.3% by Jews, a combined total of 5% performed because of rape or incest;fetal abnormalities; due to the mother's health problems (1%, 1% + 3% respectively), leaving a percentage of 25% being performed on women either non religious or following religions other than the aforementioned.

In total though the statistics show that the MAJORITY of women actually opting FOR willfull medically aided terminations, were in fact of Christian denomination. Of that 38.7%, 18% specifically "named" themselves as being "born again" or evangelical christians.

Anyway to EoE's comments:

goat wrote:Abortion is not a crime. It is not murder

To which EoE replied: That is your opinion. Generally when an innocent life is taken, it is murder.

Then it looks like lke the MAJORITY of these "murderers" are in the church pew next to you.

Yes, Jesus said His true followers were not just those who called him Lord, but those that followed His commandments. These people flunk that test.

goat wrote:It is entirely legal.

EOE replied: So was slavery. The atrocities done by Hitler and Stalin had legal sanction for the most part.

Yes, slavery was legal and in his purported time, bible jesus not only condoned the act but also gave "tips" as to how to punish them.

Where did Jesus mandate slavery? BTW, His purpose in coming to earth was to reconcile fallen man to God, not fix every social evil. "My kingdom is not of this world".

As to Stalin and Hitler.. yes thank you BOTH of them "of faith" (Stalin Orthodox xian

You need to educate yourself. From Wikipedia: "The Soviet Union was the first state to have as an ideological objective the elimination of religion. Toward that end, the Communist regime confiscated church property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in the schools. Actions toward particular religions, however, were determined by State interests, and most organized religions were never outlawed.

Some actions against Orthodox priests and believers along with execution included torture being sent to prison camps, labour camps or mental hospitals.[11][12][13][14] Many Orthodox (along with peoples of other faiths) were also subjected to psychological punishment or torture and mind control experimentation in order to force them give up their religious convictions (see Punitive psychiatry in the Soviet Union). [12][13][15][16]

It is estimated the some 20 million Christians (18 million Orthodox, 2 million Roman Catholic) died or were interned in gulags under the Soviet regime 2.7 million martyred under Stalin.[17]

Practicing Orthodox Christians were restricted from prominent careers and membership in communist organizations (the party, the Komsomol). Anti-religious propaganda was openly sponsored and encouraged by the government, which the Church was not given an opportunity to publicly respond to. The government youth organization, the Komsomol, encouraged its members to vandalize Orthodox Churches and harass worshipers. Seminaries were closed down, and the church was restricted from using the press."

and Hitler, catholic turned Martin Luther fan).

Was not a Christian.

Now Eoe, just a guess here but given your quite sterile *cough* comments I have to jump to the conclusion that you are male,

Good guess, I am male.

Just WHY is it ridiculous for me to say AS A WOMAN, a man has no right to determine what I personally want to do with my own body?

Elaborate and validate.

The unborn baby is not a part of your body, you are the temporary host. If it did not leave your body, you would die, and it probably has a different blood type.


No reason to get unhinged, Catalyst. Wouldn't want to see you banned.

[micatala]

Moderator Warning

A person is a person no matter how small.

It is not the size which defines personhood. I have a problem attributing legal personhood to an entity with no more cognitive ability than a fish.

Do you want to euthanize mentally handicapped people also? Altheimer's patients?

Frankly, I am disgusted and offended by the comment made by East Of Eden as it appears that he/she??( I will presume HE) is equating the cognitive skills of a fish with (his words) "mentally handicapped" PEOPLE and those with Alzheimers.

The ONLY "handicap" I see here is their (EoE's) ignorance.

I AM ******* APPALLED!

BTW to any mod or admin deciding it is warranted to give me a warning or probation for the language or my comment, then do so.

But from where I sit, I am more than happy to cop it. Their **** was completely uncalled for.

It is warranted, and I am doing so.

Feel free to express your "appallment" but without the profanity.

[czollers]

interesting poll. i am (apparently thus far the only) pro-choice, theist. now by pro-choice i don't mean i am happy about abortion. on the contrary, but i do not like the government having a say in the matter. the issue is moral, and not for politician's to decide.

as a christian, i am pretty liberal in this approach, but i have yet to be able to be convinced that life begins at conception. for me, the issue surrounds the definition of human life. is a little squiggly collection of cells human life? i dunno. it certainly is potentially human life, but is that the same?

in any case, christians have for far too long been too vocal about what they perceive to be wrong, and IMO have completely ignored the equally tragic suffering undergone by anyone who is forced to consider abortion. we cannot preach pro-life because god loves every person, while treating the mother or parents with malice & hatred.

let's let people make up their own decisions, and then be there to love them through the horrible situation that brought them to the clinic in the first place...

[catalyst]

EoE wrote:

Yes, Jesus said His true followers were not just those who called him Lord, but those that followed His commandments. These people flunk that test.

Medically aided termination of a pregnancy is LEGAL, hence, no alleged "commandment" is being flouted.

Where did Jesus mandate slavery?

Ephesians 6:5 and 1 Timothy 6:1-2, just two examples from the NT. I have more if you want them from the NT. How many examples do you want from the OT as there is a bevvy and considering bible jesus allegedly IS "god" and all, would you like me to pop them up as well?

BTW, His purpose in coming to earth was to reconcile fallen man to God, not fix every social evil. "My kingdom is not of this world".

That being the case, nothing "commanded" of the character should apply in THIS world anyway.

You need to educate yourself. From Wikipedia:...blah blah blah....

The irony that someone quoting wiki advises another to educate themself! lol Wiki even have a disclaimer on their own site stating that there is no guarantee that information IS correct. I doubt however you would have noticed this, considering you come across as a "face value" kind of person and tend to believe what you WANT to believe over any reality.
Stalin was a christian, whether YOU like it or not and the fact he is being considered for SAINTHOOD by the Orthodox Church, attests to that fact. Perhaps you should get your head out of wiki...or elsewhere.. and actually READ. Here is a good start: http://books.google.com/books?id=rqQYtm ... =4#PPP1,M1
ENJOY!

Was not a Christian

Hitler was most certianly a xian, so much so xianity was the catalyst for the Holocaust. Hitlers anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, On the Jews and their Lies, Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs as well as direct quotes from teh bible from bible jesus and paul.
He despised Jews (which was evident) by this:

Here Hitler uses the Bible and his Christianity in order to attack the Jews and uphold his anti-Semitism:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, Gods truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." "Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

and atheists. We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out. -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933.
------
And you have the audacity to tell ME to educate myself?

The unborn baby is not a part of your body, you are the temporary host. If it did not leave your body, you would die, and it probably has a different blood type.

And just if you didn't take a "dump", you would die too. THAT you are a temp host for. I DO assume you expel that without consulting or asking permission of anyone else? I fail to see the point you are attempting to make there.
It is also interesting to note that an unborn infant IS a part of a womans body. For it to be viable it MUST latch onto the wall of the WOMANS uterus, for the conception process to even be deemed "viable", therefore becoming ONE with the woman hence yes part of her body for the time determined BY THE WOMAN if she chooses. Again it is not an option I would willfully make, but it is not for me to decide what another woman does with her OWN BODY, just as it is not yours as a male and just as it is not for me to decide if you choose to get some one handed gratification, at the expense of some "potential life" during a wank-fest.

No reason to get unhinged, Catalyst. Wouldn't want to see you banned.

My reasoning for being ticked off at your comments was well warranted. I realised full well there would be action as to it, but sometimes whether it is deemed acceptable "protocol" or not, when faced with ignorant, self-righteous tronks such as you, one has no option but to be true to themselves. I am all about honesty, intellectual or otherwise. Something that quite obviously alludes you.

[East of Eden]

Medically aided termination of a pregnancy is LEGAL, hence, no alleged "commandment" is being flouted.

Prostitution is legal in Nevada, and I don't consider that moral either.

Ephesians 6:5 and 1 Timothy 6:1-2, just two examples from the NT. I have more if you want them from the NT. How many examples do you want from the OT as there is a bevvy and considering bible jesus allegedly IS "god" and all, would you like me to pop them up as well?

Using your above argument, since slavery was LEGAL at the time, what's the problem?

As my Bible commentary sensibly says, "Both the Old Testament and the New Testament included regulations for societal situations such as slavery and divorce, which were the results of the hardness of hearts. Such regulations did not encourage or condone such situations but were divinely-given, practical ways of dealing with the realities of the day."

BTW, the NT does condemn slave-trading in I Tim. 1:10. Possibly why Wilberforce and the British evangelicals were motivated to end the slave trade.

That being the case, nothing "commanded" of the character should apply in THIS world anyway.

It's where we live, for now.

The irony that someone quoting wiki advises another to educate themself! lol Wiki even have a disclaimer on their own site stating that there is no guarantee that information IS correct. I doubt however you would have noticed this, considering you come across as a "face value" kind of person and tend to believe what you WANT to believe over any reality.
Stalin was a christian, whether YOU like it or not and the fact he is being considered for SAINTHOOD by the Orthodox Church, attests to that fact. Perhaps you should get your head out of wiki...or elsewhere.. and actually READ. Here is a good start: http://books.google.com/books?id=rqQYtm ... =4#PPP1,M1

Wikipedia is a lot less biased than most of us, and much less than that ridiculous book link you put up. Which facts I posted about Stalin's persecution of Christianity do you disagree with?

Hitler was most certianly a xian, so much so xianity was the catalyst for the Holocaust. Hitlers anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, On the Jews and their Lies, Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs as well as direct quotes from teh bible from bible jesus and paul.
He despised Jews (which was evident) by this:

Here Hitler uses the Bible and his Christianity in order to attack the Jews and uphold his anti-Semitism:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, Gods truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." "Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

and atheists. We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out. -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933.
------
And you have the audacity to tell ME to educate myself?

Yes. From Dinesh D'Souza, "During his ascent to power [note your above Hitler quote from 1933], Hitler needed the support of the German people - both the Bavarian Catholics and the Prussion Lutherans - and to secure this he occasionally used rhetoric such as "I am doing the Lord's work." To claim that this rhetoric makes Hitler a Christian is to confuse political opportunism with personal conviction. Hitler himself says in 'Mein Kampf' that his public statements should be understood as propaganda that bear no relation to the truth but are designed to sway the masses."

Here are Hitler's private comments on Christianity. He sounds like you guys.

The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:


Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:


National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:


Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:


The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:


The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:


Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:


Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)


14th December, 1941, midday:


Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:


There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:


It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)

And if you didn't take a "dump", you would die too. THAT you are a temp host for. I DO assume you expel that without consulting or asking permission of anyone else? I fail to see the point you are attempting to make there.
It is also interesting to note that an unborn infant IS a part of a womans body. For it to be viable it MUST latch onto the wall of the WOMANS uterus, for the conception process to even be deemed "viable", therefore becoming ONE with the woman hence yes part of her body for the time determined BY THE WOMAN if she chooses. Again it is not an option I would willfully make, but it is not for me to decide what another woman does with her OWN BODY, just as it is not yours as a male and just as it is not for me to decide if you choose to get some one handed gratification, at the expense of some "potential life" during a wank-fest.

The 'wank-fest' doesn't result in a living human being, which is what the victims of abortion are.

From Abort73.com:

There are a number of clear biological facts, and all sorts of legal precedents, that easily refute the claim that the embryo or fetus is simply part of the mother's body.

1) An individual's body parts all share the same genetic code. If the unborn child were actually a part of the mother's body, the unborn's cells would have the same genetic code as the cells of the mother. This is not the case. Every cell of the unborn's body is genetically distinct from every cell in the mother's body.

2) In many cases, the blood type of the unborn child is different than the blood type of the mother. Since one body cannot function with two different blood types, this is clearly not the mother's blood.

3) In half of all pregnancies, the unborn child is a male, meaning that even the sex of the child is different from the mother.

4) As Randy Alcorn states in his book Pro-Life Answers to Pro-Choice Arguments, "A Chinese zygote implanted in a Swedish woman will always be Chinese, not Swedish, because his identity is based on his genetic code, not on that of the body in which he resides."

5) It is possible for a fetus to die while the mother lives, and it is possible for the mother to die while the fetus lives. This could not be true if the mother and child were simply one person.

6) When the embryo implants in the lining of the uterus, it emits chemical substances which weaken the woman's immune system within the uterus so that this tiny "foreign" body is not rejected by the woman's body. Were this tiny embryo simply "part of the woman's body" there would be no need to locally disable the woman's immunities.

7) It is illegal to execute a pregnant woman on death row because the fetus living inside her is a distinct human being who cannot be executed for the crimes of the mother (International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights: Article 6.5).

8) When Scott Peterson killed his pregnant wife, Laci, he was convicted on two counts of murder.

9) Sir Albert Lilley (the "Father of Fetology") made this observation in a 1970 speech entitled "The Termination of Pregnancy or the Extermination of the Fetus?"

Physiologically, we must accept that the conceptus is, in a very large measure, in charge of the pregnancy.... Biologically, at no stage can we subscribe to the view that the fetus is a mere appendage of the mother.... It is the embryo who stops his mother's periods and makes her womb habitable by developing a placenta and a protective capsule of fluid for himself. He regulates his own amniotic fluid volume and although women speak of their waters breaking or their membranes rupturing, these structures belong to the fetus. And finally, it is the fetus, not the mother, who decides when labor should be initiated.

To put it simply, women don't have four arms and four legs when they're pregnant. Those extra appendages belong to the tiny human being(s) living inside of them. At no point in pregnancy is the developing embryo or fetus simply a part of the mother's body.

My reasoning for being ticked off at your comments was well warranted. I realised full well there would be action as to it, but sometimes whether it is deemed acceptable "protocol" or not, when faced with ignorant, self-righteous tronks such as you, one has no option but to be true to themselves. I am all about honesty, intellectual or otherwise. Something that quite obviously alludes you.

Just one question: What's a 'tronk'. I've a feeling it's not good.

[Goat]

[
<Snipped a whole bunch of "Hitler quotes"

.

These quotes all came from "Hitler's Table talks" , which allegedly came from Hitler.

However, the book was 'edited' by Bormann, and the original transcripts were destroyed. The stenographers themselves say that the 'table talk' was not reliable.

So, your source for those quotes are just plain unreliable.

It is also directly is countered by 'Memoirs of a Confident'.. which is conversations of Hitler with a friend.

[East of Eden]

[
<Snipped a whole bunch of "Hitler quotes"

.

These quotes all came from "Hitler's Table talks" , which allegedly came from Hitler.

However, the book was 'edited' by Bormann, and the original transcripts were destroyed. The stenographers themselves say that the 'table talk' was not reliable.

So, your source for those quotes are just plain unreliable.

It is also directly is countered by 'Memoirs of a Confident'.. which is conversations of Hitler with a friend.

Hitler's anti-Christian talk was confirmed by others, including his secretary Traudl Junge in her memoirs.

Historian Richard Evans writes that "the Nazis regarded the churches as the strongest and toughest reservoirs of ideological opposition to the principles they believed in." Once Hitler and the Nazis came to power, they tried to subdue and weaken Christian churches in Germany. Evans points out that after 1937 the policies of Hitler's government became increasingly anti-religious. The Nazis stopped celebrating Christmas, and the Hitler Youth recited a prayer thanking the Fuhrer rather than God for their blessings. Clergy regarded as "troublemakers" were ordered not to preach, hundreds of them were imprisoned, and many were murdered. Churches were under constant Gestapo surveillance. The Nazis closed religious schools, forced Christian organizations to disband, dismissed civil servants who were practicing Christians, confiscated church property, and censored religious newspapers.

Again, the pro-Christian Hitler quotes are from the early days when he was trying to gain power.