Why are gay people a Christian target?

[Colorado127]

I am perplexed by fundamentalist christians that are always targeting gay people. They want to pass all sorts of laws restricting rights and privileges that everyone else has. What frustrates me the most is that they seem to be tunnel-visioned on gays. There are many things in the christian bible that they could talk about. I bet you there are more adulterers in the US than gay people and adultery is a ten commandments topic. What about honoring your parents? Can we focus on that for a while? This gay marriage thing being a religious idea only? I know of several religions that encourage gay people to find partners to marry including Unity, Unitarian Universalists and the Quakers.

I believe that gay people are the target because the christian religion, or its higher ups, have nothing else to target? They have lost the battle with alcohol and porn, they used to say black people couldn't marry white people but can't do that anymore. They try to stop drugs but you can't pass any more laws about that. Ok I'm being a bit out there, but really, Christianity has been losing its control over its flock for decades, if not centuries. Every sociologist and psychology person can easily see that when someone or some group sees its former control waning they will do anything to regain it. It's a desparate act. These fundamentalist christians have to find something to rally the troops.....wha-laa!.....gay people. A marginalized group in our over masculinized, sports culture that many people feel uncomfortable with. From history, the Nazi's for example, we know that hate is an excellent way to mobilize a group.

Isn't it blatantly unconstitutional to forbid the marriage of two people? In Virginia they want to outlaw any 'marraige like' contracts between two people of the same sex, doesn't that seem unconstitutional? The sodomy laws that Chief Justice Souter condemned was obviously directed at gay men. The 14th amendments says no state shall pass a law abridging the rights of its citizens. The only people saying I cannot marry another guy is christians? Right there we have a church-state conflict.

Ok, let me have it!

[Jose]

Look at it this way. If I'm in a house that's on fire and I know the one way to escape, would you want me to just run out the door and leave everybody else to burn? As a Christian, I know the way out of the burning house and I am going to point out the exit to everybody I encounter. There will be some people who refuse to believe me and some who might get downright nasty with me for trying to point them in the right direction, but that's not going to stop me from trying to help them.

This is an interesting analogy, and suggests that your heart is in the right place. The problem is, being in a burning house isn't the same as being inside a body that God hard-wired to be homosexual. While you may be able to show someone how to escape from the house, there's nothing you can do to change the person who's gay. As ST88 pointed out, it's biological--part genetic, part hormonal, and outside of your control.

As a Christian, I don't want to see anybody miss out on heaven and spend eternity in hell. Therefore, I speak out against homosexuality because it's a sin that will keep people separated from God for eternity. ...
If I hated homosexuals, I wouldn't say a thing about their homosexuality. I'd just let them go to hell. It's because I love homosexuals that I speak out and offer them a chance to break free and enjoy life and connect with God.

And it is this that makes gays a Christian target. As a Christian, you target gays for special treatment, under the misguided impression that you are doing good. For many Christians, the special treatment is punitive. This is rather similar to the Mormons posthumously baptizing Jews so that they can join their version of heaven. We might ask what gives people the right to dictate what others do? It's not Christian, but seems to be extremely common among Christians.

The idea that homosexuals are born that way is a complete myth with no scientific proof that they cannot change. In fact, they CAN change. There are all kinds of ex-gays who share how they broke from that prison and help others leave that lifestyle behind.

The fact that some gays claim that they have changed in no way demonstrates that all can change. Probably, like all traits, it is variable. Those who have a mild form of homosexuality may be able to overcome it by force of will. Those with a more deeply-seated form cannnot. As ST88 noted, there are data that address the biological basis of homosexuality. There are biological differences between gays and non-gays. Not only is there the genetic basis, there is also the fact that sexually-dimorphic traits are influenced by sex hormones during development. The brain is sexually dimorphic: males and females have differences, and for some of these differences, homosexuals are intermediate.

What affects the hormonal control of brain development during embryogenesis? Well, we know a lot about pollutants that affect hormonal signalling. We call these chemicals "endocrine disruptors." One is found in the plasticizer used in fingernail polish, and has been shown to feminize male rats. No one has looked, to my knowledge, at the effects on male humans. It may feminize brain development. This would be pretty sad, wouldn't it, to find that you are castigating men because their mothers used fingernail polish during pregnancy. There are many other endocrine disruptors...we know that many affect the development of the external genitalia; how many of them affect the wiring of the brain? Unless you know for a fact that none do, you might want to back off on your claim that homosexuality is just a lifestyle choice. It's very clear that it is not.

And, herein lies the problem. Christians (except for the gay ones) seem to assume that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, and is a sin because the authors of the bible were not scientifically sophisticated and therefore didn't know differently. Now that we do know differently--just as we know differently about the relationship of the earth and the sun--isn't it time to re-adjust our thinking and stop persecuting the innocent?

But there is something sinful about homosexuality and homosexuals CAN and DO change all the time. Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and should NOT be treated as a human rights issue any more than prostitution or pedophilia can be considered human rights issues. No one would argue that it's discriminatory to stop men from having sex with five-year-olds. By the same token, no one should argue with people who speak out against homosexuality.

Well...there's that incorrect assumption that it's a lifestyle choice. It's not. Therefore, it really is a human rights issue. Now, I have no problem with people "speaking out" against it--speaking out is part of our nation's fundamental freedom. But let's stop forcing our view of morality on others, and stop legislating laws that restrict the freedoms of others where there is no harm to anyone involved. I'll agree with you on pedophilia, even if it, too, proves eventually to have a biological basis, because it harms children. But two consenting adults, not bothering anyone else, seems pretty innocuous.

Homosexuals have done a tremendous job selling their case. What they don't realize is they're condemning themselves to an afterlife that isn't going to be pleasant. But I intend to keep speaking out with the hope that some will see the truth and eagerly accept Christ and allow him to change them.

As I said above, speaking is fine. If you really believe that you can save someone, go ahead and speak. But, you know, if you believe that each of us is here as a result of God's blessing, and if you believe, as many Christians do, that God oversees our growth from egg to infant, then you sort of have to ask yourself why God chose to make so many people be born gay. It really doesn't matter what people say who choose to interpret the bible as a requirement to follow 2000-year old science. What matters is our interpretation of God's intent, as informed by our understanding of current science. Being born the way God intended doesn't seem to me to be condemnation to an unpleasant afterlife.

One last point: Are there people who call themselves Christians who are beating up gays, calling them names, etc.? Yes, there are, and they make me sick! I question whether they really have the love of God in them because someone who knows the Lord and shares his love will NOT abuse gay people. They will try to help them with love and encouragement. Those people who are abusive to gays and pass themselves off as Christians make me angry.

Well said. The question is: how do we reach these people, and help them behave in a more morally respectable way? From what I have gleaned from these and other forums, the Christians who behave in this sick way consider themselves to be the only True Christians, and believe themselves to be doing God's work. They clearly believe that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, that it is a sin, and that the bible tells us to punish gays for their sins. I believe they are wrong on all points, and it sounds like you believe they are wrong at least on some points. What can be done?

[melikio]

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

This says it well; mitacala made a decent point with it.

It bothers people so much (especially HATERS), because it INCLUDES them. People who HATE homosexuals, prove who they really are serving. And while it is near impossible to get some hiding behind the "Chrsitian" label to admit it (that they hate homosexual people; not just the "sin"), they realize their own spiritual dilemma, and it causes a frustration that likely rivals that of any given struggling homosexual.

Some religions and groups of people, have managed to JUSTIFY (at least socially) that villification of a group of human beings on this planet, who most likely did not "choose" to be the way they are. And it is my opinion (based upon all that I know), that God will address it and/or allow justice to be served (ultimately).

I have watched the attitudes of people for over 35 years, concerning homosexuals. And God has seen infinitely more. One thing I know, is that John 3:16 includes them, and thankfully those who persecute them, rather than minister kindly to them.

People will be surprised one day.

Love IS the most excellent way (no matter what). And while I understand that humans are in no way perfect, the treatment and attitudes toward homosexuals I've witnessed in my short life, tells me that many people SAYING they serve Jesus, don't really.

-Mel-

[melikio]

And, herein lies the problem. Christians (except for the gay ones) seem to assume that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, and is a sin because the authors of the bible were not scientifically sophisticated and therefore didn't know differently. Now that we do know differently--just as we know differently about the relationship of the earth and the sun--isn't it time to re-adjust our thinking and stop persecuting the innocent?

You nailed it, Jose.

It's terrible how some people have managed to "Christianize" the horrible treatment of homosexuals as it now exists.

It's all so very similar to the "witch-hunts" of the 17th century (America), and people don't (or won't) see it.

So much hypocrisy would make me crazy, if I didn't know Jesus cared as much for homosexuals, as he does for everyone else.

I think and believe true justice will prevail on all levels concerning this, and the troubles we see today are merely a part of what is to ultimately be.

-Mel-

[AlAyeti]

What Bible-based Church does not agree to the assertions in the Bible of all the sins listed above?

How does the Church stay a legally allowable institution in America if same-sex marriage is legalized and therefore forced on Churches to have to accept it? Will they be forced to burn their Bibles or close the doors if not accepting any opposition view on all other sins as well?

Not one sinner inn the Bible claims the excuse of having been "born that way" for exemption from the list of qualifications to being a sinner.

And, everyone (Christian that is) IS born a sinner and yet still accepts the label and repents of something even though they had no control of it from birth.

Is it not actions that are judged? An individual knows what they should not do and yet does it anyway. Are they allowed a congential defense before God who created them in their condition?

It seems not.

Even within the world of man, "repeat offenders" bare a justifiable stigma.

Is "love" present in us when we allow the condition of the repeat offender to go on? For even in prison is the bottom line not rehabilitation until the person judged and incarcerated gives up on themselves and grasps wrongdoing as their way of life?

A congenital condition is defineable precisely because there is a norm to compare it to. And the same condition exists within the Biblically-based belief systems. That is not bigotry but is the exact opposite.

[Amphigorey]

What Bible-based Church does not agree to the assertions in the Bible of all the sins listed above?

But this topic is specifically about homosexuality. So, therefore, staying on topic, there are plenty of Christian denominations that go so far as to perform and celebrate same-sex weddings. Of course those marriages aren't legal, because there is no license which is granted by the State. But Unitarian Universalists, United Church of Christ, Society of Friends, Evangelical Lutherans, and other denominations will perform a ceremony. Usually about now you'll declare that none of these are "true" Christian denominations.

How does the Church stay a legally allowable institution in America if same-sex marriage is legalized and therefore forced on Churches to have to accept it? Will they be forced to burn their Bibles or close the doors if not accepting any opposition view on all other sins as well?

Legalizing same-sex marriage isn't going to "force" anyone to attend, perform or even agree with same-sex marriage. It will simply allow the State (NOT your Church) to grant Licenses to same sex couples. Churches aren't legally required to marry people. Burning bibles is just a little dramatic. And you'd do well to stop lumping homosexuality in with other unrelated behaviors simply because you think they're all sins. Human sacrifice has been a part of religious practice in many parts of the world for millenia, yet no one is trying to outlaw religious practice because it's some sort of slippery slope that leads to human sacrifice.

[AlAyeti]

"Legalizing same-sex marriage isn't going to "force" anyone to attend, perform or even agree with same-sex marriage. It will simply allow the State (NOT your Church) to grant Licenses to same sex couples. Churches aren't legally required to marry people. Burning bibles is just a little dramatic. And you'd do well to stop lumping homosexuality in with other unrelated behaviors simply because you think they're all sins. Human sacrifice has been a part of religious practice in many parts of the world for millennia, yet no one is trying to outlaw religious practice because it's some sort of slippery slope that leads to human sacrifice."

It appears your position is as ignorant of the agenda being forced on society, as it is of the Bible. I wish the proponents and adherents of the Progressive dogma possessed your innocence. By the way, Human Sacrifice is alive and well within the Progressive faith. That is if science can be believed.

"I" am not lumping homosexuality in with other unrelated behaviors... I read and understand what is written in the Bible. And, with the churches you mention as somehow ethical to the written word of the Bible, the answer may lie in religion after all, since believing the human body is designed for what it is not naturally designed for, is a supernatural belief.

[Amphigorey]

It appears your position is as ignorant of the agenda being forced on society, as it is of the Bible.

Right. There's a big bad "agenda" out there. And you have the answer for it.

[AlAyeti]

I know the difference between a used car and a new one. In fact I know where the gas goes and what it's for.

I'm not buying what their selling. And never will. Luckily, I'm not a defenseless child in a public school.

[melikio]

I know the difference between a used car and a new one. In fact I know where the gas goes and what it's for.

I'm not buying what their selling. And never will. Luckily, I'm not a defenseless child in a public school.

And long after we've discarded what is valuable to God (homosexual people, perhaps), He is just as interested in caring for and salvaging them, as some humans often are to bring them down (in this world).

God is in the business of recycling people. And we don't have all the answers as it relates to how He manages to do that. We don't even care as much about people as He does; that's as hard for some to accept, as anything else.

We can't match the love of God, despite the reality that it's the most important thing to work at emulating.

-Mel-

[micatala]

It appears your position is as ignorant of the agenda being forced on society, as it is of the Bible.

I don't know if you have read through this whole thread, but I would disagree with you that your position is the Biblical one and that those who support equal rights for gays are taking an unbiblical position. You could read some of my exchanges with Shamgar earlier in this thread, and there is also a related discussion of scriptural issues in the Do You Fund Evil? thread.

You seem very concerned about the so-called 'homosexual agenda.' First off, what is wrong if homosexuals do have an agenda?

Also, why wouldn't homosexuals have an agenda? Could it be because throughout history they have been lynched, demonized, spurned and abused in countless ways? Could it be they are only trying to see that they have they are allowed the same constitutional rights of "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" that all U.S. citizens are granted? You have implied that the so-called agenda is evil, unjustified, and somehow subversive, but have not made the case why it is any of these things, and have certainly not allowed that homosexuals have every good reason to have an agenda.