The abortion issue

[jgh7]

This is my first time adding a poll, so hopefully it works

I notice that the issue of gay marriage is a hot topic on these forums, but people tend to skirt around abortion... Gee, I wonder why? Here's a poll, please choose one of the options even if you feel that you're "special" to the point of where none of these options describes you. Please keep in mind, This has to do only with pregnancies that are not the result of rape, are not a danger to the mother's life, and with fetuses that will not have grossly severe deformities or disabilities. I have opinions about each of these special circumstances, but I would like this topic to be about the overwhelming majority of pregnancies which don't have these problems.

Obviously you can voice your stance as well, and feel free to talk about your opinions of how religion relates to all of this... or how it shouldn't. Here's mine:

For me, my strong views about abortion coincide highly with my religious views, but I developed them before I became religious. I view life as sacred from the moment of conception. I don't care if the zef (zygote/embryo/fetus) can think, I don't care how he looks, I don't care if the mother-to-be is a teenager or not, and I don't care about the impact on society. All I care about is the zef's life, and how I define life is not based off of cognitive abilities, development of vital organs, or ability to survive outside the womb. Life is about having a future on this earth. Many people say it's no big deal because there are so many early miscarriages that we don't even realize happen, but that is an awful reason to justify the purposeful destruction of life.

The main pro-choice argument is that the mother has a right to choose since it's her body. I strongly disagree. In the cases of voluntary sex, people know the risks; even when they use protection they know there's still a risk. Even if they don't know the risks, that still does not justify killing the zef because of their ignorance. Even in the worst case scenario, where the mother is a teenager and dirt poor, I strongly believe that abortion is wrong. Life is sacred to the point of where both parents ought to be willing to sacrifice their monetary well-being as well as their personal lives/time/aspirations for the sake of letting their child live.

My faith strengthens my stance, and I'm not ashamed to admit that the only way I could feel so strongly is through my faith. After all, with a non-theistic view it's pretty easy to view life as insignificant if it's a tiny spec that doesn't think and doesn't look anything like a baby. I understand many will be offended by this, but I've seen that this is the case for many non-theists.

The final argument that usually arises is: "Isn't using protection the same as abortion, since you're preventing sperm from entering the egg?" I believe we have the right to choose when we want to create life, but we don't have the right to choose to destroy that life once it has been created. I may not know the precise time down to the second, but somewhere during the moment of conception, life is created. A sperm will not grow into a baby, and neither will an egg; only a fertilized egg. All that is left after conception is less than a year of growing until the life is born. Using protection is no more abortion than is choosing not to have sex for a certain night. Both cases mean that sperm that could have fertilized an egg was prevented from doing so. But destroying a fertilized egg is abortion, because it is killing off a human life that is growing.

These are my views. I know there are many points where people can disagree, but abortion is one thing where I have a very strong stance on, since I believe it is killing. When people are lax on their stances and say things like, "It's only for mothers to decide," it usually means that they don't view the zef as a life.

[micatala]

It is scientifically proven that abortion is killing a human being and not a lifeless embryo.

A person is a person no matter how small.

This statement is confusing categories.

Science does not determine legality or morality. Science only describes the physical universe in natural terms and attempts to explain why it is the way it is.

Saying science determines that abortion is "killing a human being" is somewhat like saying science determines that Christianity is a better religions than Hinduism or that science determines that dancing is sinful.

What we are talking about is not what a fetus is scientifically, but what rights under the law a fetus should have. Traditionally, legal personhood started at birth if not later. If we want to extend these rights to the unborn, that is a legal and perhaps also a moral matter, not a scientific one. We might use what we know scientifically to inform what we decide from a legal standpoint, but science does not "determine" that a fetus should have full legal rights from the moment of conception.

The phrase "sciecne determines life begins at conception" is really just a way to try and bolster a legal argument by appealing to the authority of science.

[East of Eden]

This is my first time adding a poll, so hopefully it works

I notice that the issue of gay marriage is a hot topic on these forums, but people tend to skirt around abortion... Gee, I wonder why? Here's a poll, please choose one of the options even if you feel that you're "special" to the point of where none of these options describes you. Please keep in mind, This has to do only with pregnancies that are not the result of rape, are not a danger to the mother's life, and with fetuses that will not have grossly severe deformities or disabilities. I have opinions about each of these special circumstances, but I would like this topic to be about the overwhelming majority of pregnancies which don't have these problems.

How about 'none of the above'....

I'm pro-life, pro-choice and a non-theist.

cheers

Until you can give a better explanation of your nonsensical stance, I'll just assume that you mean pro-choice. It's most likely the case I'm sure.

You are assuming that 'pro-choice' is not promoting life too. That is an error based. Someone who is 'pro-choice' is not 'pro-abortion'.

Someone who was in favor of people choosing to be slaveowners was similarly pro-slavery. The pro-slavery side never wanted it to be mandatory.

Interesting from the poll results how over-represented non-theists are here.

[East of Eden]

jgh7 wrote:

Please keep in mind, This has to do only with pregnancies that are not the result of rape, are not a danger to the mother's life, and with fetuses that will not have grossly severe deformities or disabilities. I have opinions about each of these special circumstances, but I would like this topic to be about the overwhelming majority of pregnancies which don't have these problems.

I cannot help but notice you popped in your own disclaimer regarding certain **special** circumstances. IS it ok for the woman to CHOOSE in situations like those jgh7? If so why? Isn't it still a LIFE at conception regardless of what the foetus "becomes" as per your rhetoric?

If you have your own "reasoned" excuses and are OK with it in SOME circumstances, then you too are on the PRO-CHOICE/PRO-LIFE boat too, from my view of what you have written anyway.

As a woman myself, I would not make a CHOICE to terminate a pregnancy, for social reasons, however it is MY CHOICE for me personally, not to. That means I am pro-life. However, it is therefore not MY PLACE to place restrictions on OTHER WOMENS personal choices as to what to do with their own bodies. I make MY choice for me, and as such they can make their choice for themselves... hence pro-choice...capiche?

When or if you personally are capable of being impregnated, then YOU can make any choice you want....for YOU.

As a former fetus myself, I have a right to express my opinion. It is ridiculous to say men have no say in this matter.

You are certainly placing restrictions on other women who happen to be unborn.

[East of Eden]

I am a christian and I stand against abortion. A person becomes a person at conception. There was a documentary made a while ago called The Silent Scream. It was an ultra sound recording of an abortion. There were more than clear signs that they unborn baby was put through immense pain and suffering while it endured the abortion. It is scientifically proven that abortion is killing a human being and not a lifeless embryo.

A person is a person no matter how small.

right...What if there is a high chance of the mother dying in childbirth? or what if the mother was raped and wants to get a 1st trimester abortion? Do you condemn that as well?

And what about the...what was it 12 year old child who was raped and abused by her uncle, impregnated, and then got an abortion because there was a very high chance that both she and the fetus would die if she didn't?

1% of abortions are the result of rape or incest. Two crimes don't make a right.

[Goat]

As a former fetus myself, I have a right to express my opinion. It is ridiculous to say men have no say in this matter.

You are certainly placing restrictions on other women who happen to be unborn.

And, when you were a fetus, you were not a person yet. As a former fetus myself, I know that what happens, happens, and the choice of man is very important.

[Goat]

I am a christian and I stand against abortion. A person becomes a person at conception. There was a documentary made a while ago called The Silent Scream. It was an ultra sound recording of an abortion. There were more than clear signs that they unborn baby was put through immense pain and suffering while it endured the abortion. It is scientifically proven that abortion is killing a human being and not a lifeless embryo.

A person is a person no matter how small.

right...What if there is a high chance of the mother dying in childbirth? or what if the mother was raped and wants to get a 1st trimester abortion? Do you condemn that as well?

And what about the...what was it 12 year old child who was raped and abused by her uncle, impregnated, and then got an abortion because there was a very high chance that both she and the fetus would die if she didn't?

1% of abortions are the result of rape or incest. Two crimes don't make a right.

Abortion is not a crime. It is not murder. It is entirely legal. And, there are more reasons to get an abortion than rape or incest. There are medical reasons too.

[East of Eden]

I am a christian and I stand against abortion. A person becomes a person at conception. There was a documentary made a while ago called The Silent Scream. It was an ultra sound recording of an abortion. There were more than clear signs that they unborn baby was put through immense pain and suffering while it endured the abortion. It is scientifically proven that abortion is killing a human being and not a lifeless embryo.

A person is a person no matter how small.

right...What if there is a high chance of the mother dying in childbirth? or what if the mother was raped and wants to get a 1st trimester abortion? Do you condemn that as well?

And what about the...what was it 12 year old child who was raped and abused by her uncle, impregnated, and then got an abortion because there was a very high chance that both she and the fetus would die if she didn't?

1% of abortions are the result of rape or incest. Two crimes don't make a right.

Abortion is not a crime. It is not murder.

That is your opinion. Generally when an innocent life is taken, it is murder.

It is entirely legal.

So was slavery. The atrocities done by Hitler and Stalin had legal sanction for the most part.

And, there are more reasons to get an abortion than rape or incest. There are medical reasons too.

Another extreme case.

[McCulloch]

A person is a person no matter how small.

It is not the size which defines personhood. I have a problem attributing legal personhood to an entity with no more cognitive ability than a fish.

[Goat]

I am a christian and I stand against abortion. A person becomes a person at conception. There was a documentary made a while ago called The Silent Scream. It was an ultra sound recording of an abortion. There were more than clear signs that they unborn baby was put through immense pain and suffering while it endured the abortion. It is scientifically proven that abortion is killing a human being and not a lifeless embryo.

A person is a person no matter how small.

right...What if there is a high chance of the mother dying in childbirth? or what if the mother was raped and wants to get a 1st trimester abortion? Do you condemn that as well?

And what about the...what was it 12 year old child who was raped and abused by her uncle, impregnated, and then got an abortion because there was a very high chance that both she and the fetus would die if she didn't?

1% of abortions are the result of rape or incest. Two crimes don't make a right.

Abortion is not a crime. It is not murder.

That is your opinion. Generally when an innocent life is taken, it is murder.

It is entirely legal.

So was slavery. The atrocities done by Hitler and Stalin had legal sanction for the most part.

And, there are more reasons to get an abortion than rape or incest. There are medical reasons too.

Another extreme case.

Well, legally it is not a crime. Please, show me the law in the united states that says 'Abortion is totally illegal'. If you can't, then it's not a crime. You might WANT to be a crime, but, technically it isn't. Emotional equivocation does not cause your claim to be valid.

[East of Eden]

I am a christian and I stand against abortion. A person becomes a person at conception. There was a documentary made a while ago called The Silent Scream. It was an ultra sound recording of an abortion. There were more than clear signs that they unborn baby was put through immense pain and suffering while it endured the abortion. It is scientifically proven that abortion is killing a human being and not a lifeless embryo.

A person is a person no matter how small.

right...What if there is a high chance of the mother dying in childbirth? or what if the mother was raped and wants to get a 1st trimester abortion? Do you condemn that as well?

And what about the...what was it 12 year old child who was raped and abused by her uncle, impregnated, and then got an abortion because there was a very high chance that both she and the fetus would die if she didn't?

1% of abortions are the result of rape or incest. Two crimes don't make a right.

Abortion is not a crime. It is not murder.

That is your opinion. Generally when an innocent life is taken, it is murder.

It is entirely legal.

So was slavery. The atrocities done by Hitler and Stalin had legal sanction for the most part.

And, there are more reasons to get an abortion than rape or incest. There are medical reasons too.

Another extreme case.

Well, legally it is not a crime. Please, show me the law in the united states that says 'Abortion is totally illegal'. If you can't, then it's not a crime. You might WANT to be a crime, but, technically it isn't. Emotional equivocation does not cause your claim to be valid.

I was responding to your statement that abortion is not murder. It may be legal now, but it is murder IMHO. We have the most liberal abortion laws in the world. I have a European friend who says they are shocked over there when told how permissive our laws are.