Is Socialism Moral? Especially, Christian?

[Purple Knight]

The question for debate is whether a socialist system is closer to how Jesus intended people to behave than a capitalist one.

The sub-question is for those who think socialism is moral whether that was inspired by religion or not: If a country's laws were very close to what Jesus (or your morality) taught, but as a consequence, the country was a very bad place to live, would you move there? For example, a country that has a lot of assault because it is a law that you turn the other cheek and don't hit back, and you'll be punished for retaliating. Or a country where ministers roam around, imbued with legal authority, and they decide when you must sell all your possessions and give to the poor, including your house and car.

It's very easy to have high morals when the consequences are less present because the system you happen to live in works to protect you from them. Is there something extra moral about choosing to live where the system doesn't do that? Or is it just foolish? Because perhaps the goal is to have and hold the highest morals possible and if you've been given an ivory tower with which to protect them, that's simply a logical choice to achieve maximum morality.

[marke]

The Economic Context: Capitalisms Failure to Deliver Stability
Richard Wolffs analysis of world history and economics highlights the cyclical nature of empireshow they rise through economic expansion and fall when contradictions within the system lead to crisis. The U.S. is now experiencing this decline, similar to past empires like Rome or Britain. A core reason for this decline is the extreme concentration of wealth and power, which capitalism inherently produces.

This aligns with Wolffs argument that capitalisms reliance on profit maximization leads to growing inequality, unstable economies, and the eventual alienation of the working class. As the U.S. faces worsening economic instability, traditional capitalist structures become less viable, and alternative economic models become necessary.

Socialism as a Transition, Not an End Goal
You stated earlier that socialism is a placeholder for capitalisms search for a path to communism. Wolff also argues that socialism is not a fixed system but a process of democratizing the economya necessary correction to capitalisms failings.

Rather than state socialism (which centralizes economic control in the government), Wolff advocates for a worker-owned model, such as worker cooperatives, where production is collectively managed rather than controlled by private owners or the state. This model challenges the standard capitalist assumption that economic power should be concentrated in the hands of a few.

This cooperative, community-based economic approach aligns more with the ethical teachings of Jesus than either capitalism or traditional state socialism. Jesus' teachings on wealth redistribution (e.g., "sell what you have and give to the poor") and his criticisms of the rich indicate a concern for economic justice. However, instead of advocating for top-down state control, Jesus' message could be interpreted as promoting collective responsibility and ethical economic behavior, which worker cooperatives embody.

The U.S. Decline and the Moral Question
The OPs question challenges the practicality of moral economic systems, implying that following high moral standards could lead to a dysfunctional society. However, Wolffs analysis suggests the opposite: the moral crisis in the U.S. is due to capitalism's structural inequalities, not from too much socialism.

If the U.S. economy continues on its current trajectory, with growing corporate control, wealth concentration, and worker disempowerment, social decay is inevitable.
The working class is beginning to recognize this, as seen in the resurgence of labor movements at Amazon, Starbucks, and other major corporations.
The U.S. is already becoming a bad place to live for many due to debt, lack of social safety nets, and exploitative labor conditionsall products of unchecked capitalism, not socialism.
Instead of asking whether we would move to a place where high morality makes life difficult, a more relevant question is: Can a capitalist system sustain a moral society at all? Wolffs work suggests that without fundamental changes to economic structures, morality will always take a backseat to profit.

Conclusion: Toward a Democratic Economy
To tie this back to my original point, Wolffs economic analysis supports the idea that socialism isnt a utopian goal but a transitional stage necessary for economic democratization. If capitalism remains unchecked, society will continue to experience deepening inequality, systemic crises, and declinejust as past empires did.

If we take Jesus' teachings seriouslynot just as a moral framework but as an economic critiquethen a worker-driven economic model, rather than top-down capitalism or authoritarian socialism, is the closest we can get to an ethical system.

Here is one major Biblical tenet about worker compensation:

2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

[oldbadger]

2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Here is a perfect example of how Paul changed Christianity to his own standards. Nothing to do with Jesus at all.

'Cannot not work' gets changed in to 'Would not Work' so easily.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to marke in post #51]

2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Then any idle billionaire who does nothing but swing a golf club and attend shareholders' meetings should not eat.


Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.
(Acts 4:34-35)

[Dimmesdale]

The question for debate is whether a socialist system is closer to how Jesus intended people to behave than a capitalist one.

The sub-question is for those who think socialism is moral whether that was inspired by religion or not: If a country's laws were very close to what Jesus (or your morality) taught, but as a consequence, the country was a very bad place to live, would you move there? For example, a country that has a lot of assault because it is a law that you turn the other cheek and don't hit back, and you'll be punished for retaliating. Or a country where ministers roam around, imbued with legal authority, and they decide when you must sell all your possessions and give to the poor, including your house and car.

It's very easy to have high morals when the consequences are less present because the system you happen to live in works to protect you from them. Is there something extra moral about choosing to live where the system doesn't do that? Or is it just foolish? Because perhaps the goal is to have and hold the highest morals possible and if you've been given an ivory tower with which to protect them, that's simply a logical choice to achieve maximum morality.

Morality just needs to be sincere. And sincere morality will lead to more sincere morality, if cultivated.

I don't see socialism as moral to begin with. Not a good start, in my opinion. Morality must be free. Free to cultivate and be cultivated.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Dimmesdale in post #54]

I don't see socialism as moral to begin with. Not a good start, in my opinion. Morality must be free. Free to cultivate and be cultivated.

Would you go on to suggest that we shouldn't have any laws, because laws don't leave us "free" to cultivate morality?

[William]

[Replying to marke in post #51]

2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Given that the author is not Jesus and not directly quoting Jesus, I think the verse doesn't fit in with the OP.

If anything it appears to be something that Cultural Christianity embedded into the narrative well after the story of Jesus...

[Dimmesdale]

[Replying to Dimmesdale in post #54]

I don't see socialism as moral to begin with. Not a good start, in my opinion. Morality must be free. Free to cultivate and be cultivated.

Would you go on to suggest that we shouldn't have any laws, because laws don't leave us "free" to cultivate morality?

Sounds like the difference in my tradition between vaidhika-bhakti (regulated devotion) and raganuga-bhakti (spontaneous devotion, or love). If we were truly free we would be moral because it would be in our spontaneous nature. Law doubles down on us because we are rascals who need the rod to prod us.

This prodding, however, is also paradoxically freeing, because by nature we are so warped that what we think is freedom is really license, or a slavish mentality to the spur of the moment type thinking.

[William]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #48]

Is Socialism Moral? Especially, Christian?
Socialism is Not Inherently Authoritarian
A common misconception equates socialism with state control or authoritarian communism. However, worker-oriented socialism, as discussed by economist Richard Wolff, focuses on economic democracyempowering workers to control the means of production rather than consolidating wealth under a capitalist elite or state bureaucracy.

Importantly, socialism doesnt have to be utopian to be worth pursuing. Capitalism isnt perfectits riddled with crises, inequality, and inefficienciesyet it persists because it benefits those in power. The question isnt whether socialism is flawless, but whether its a step toward a more just and functional society.

By this measure:

Capitalism disproportionately benefits the wealthy, leaving the majority economically insecure.
Worker-driven socialism redistributes economic power, allowing people to own their labor, share in profits, and stabilize conditions.
Worker cooperatives already demonstrate success, yet remain suppressed because they threaten capitalist hierarchies.
If capitalisms failures are evident, then isnt it more moral to pursue a system that prioritizes collective well-being over corporate profit? If worker-driven socialism offers the most viable ethical alternative, then our responsibility is to advance iteven if it isnt an instant or perfect solution.

Communism Has Never Been Actualized
Communism remains an unrealized concept not because it is inherently flawed, but because both the ruling and working classes struggle with re-education.

The ruling class resists communism because it demands they relinquish control over wealth and production.
The working class, conditioned by capitalist structures, struggles to imagine a world beyond wage labor, especially in societies where individualism and consumerism are deeply ingrained.
As a result, so-called "communist" regimes have never implemented true communism. Instead, they have replicated capitalist hierarchies within a state-controlled system, leading to authoritarian bureaucracies rather than worker liberation.

This is why worker-oriented socialism remains the most viable alternative todayit gradually shifts economic power from capitalist elites to workers without requiring total state control or immediate abolition of private property.

Jesus Teachings Align with Actualized Communism
Despite modern distortions, Jesus message aligns more with communism than with capitalism or even transitional socialism.

1. The Early Christian Community Modeled Communism
"All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need." (Acts 2:44-45)

Early Christians didnt just practice charitythey abolished private wealth among themselves, distributing resources based on need. This wasnt capitalism or socialism as a transitional phaseit was a direct attempt at communal living.

2. Jesus Teachings Reject Capitalist Ideals
Jesus challenged wealth accumulation and economic inequality in ways that directly oppose capitalism:

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:24) A condemnation of wealth hoarding.
"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth." (Matthew 6:19) A rejection of profit-driven accumulation.
"You cannot serve both God and money." (Matthew 6:24) A direct critique of capitalist materialism.
Jesus didnt advocate for regulated capitalism, welfare capitalism, or state socialismhe preached a radical economic transformation where wealth was shared, and economic power was decentralized. These ideals align more closely with communism than with capitalism.

3. The Challenge of Re-Education
True communism has never been realized because it requires a fundamental transformation in human consciousnessa spiritual or ethical re-education.

The ruling class clings to economic hierarchy.
The working class has been conditioned to accept wage labor as "natural."
Attempts to impose communism from the top down have failed.
Jesus teachings offer a blueprint for that transformationnot through forced government policy, but through voluntary communal action. If history has shown that forced communism fails, then its actualization must emerge organically, as individuals and communities reject capitalist exploitation and embrace economic justice.

Conclusion: A Voluntary Path to Communism
If communism is ever to be actualized, it cannot come through state enforcement or violent revolution. Instead, it must emerge through moral and ethical awakening, where people choose to create systems that prioritize human need over profit.

And what better historical example of this kind of grassroots economic transformation than Jesus and the early Christian communities?

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #51]

2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Then any idle billionaire who does nothing but swing a golf club and attend shareholders' meetings should not eat.


Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.
(Acts 4:34-35)

I suppose leftists must think Jesus opposes Christians retiring in modern America.

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #51]

2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Given that the author is not Jesus and not directly quoting Jesus, I think the verse doesn't fit in with the OP.

If anything it appears to be something that Cultural Christianity embedded into the narrative well after the story of Jesus...

Christians have historically opposed communism while communists have a long record of murdering Christians for their religious views.