On The Pledge Of Allegience

[JoeyKnothead]

Why is it so necessary to include the words "under God" in the pledge? The addition of these words into the pledge force many people to be unable to pledge their allegience to their own nation. Why is it more important to have a devisive term in a pledge that declares we are indivisible?

[palmera]

Even if there were such a thing as a nonsectarian prayer, praying is a religious act and does not belong in the public school classroom.

Your opinion. There is nothing in the Contsitution to prevent an invocation in a classroom, Congress, or the Supreme Court.

Can you explain how a prayer or an invocation is not a fundamentally religious act? The 1A is exactly what prevents the government officials from mandating, prescribing, or otherwise leading prayer in public schools.

[East of Eden]

Can you explain how a prayer or an invocation is not a fundamentally religious act?

It is, so what? So is having the phrase "In God We Trust" on our currency.

The 1A is exactly what prevents the government officials from mandating, prescribing, or otherwise leading prayer in public schools.

No, the 1A prevents the Federal government from establishing a state church, like the Church of England. It also is supposed to guarantee the free excercise of religion, which right was taken away in 1962.

[JoeyKnothead]

Can you explain how a prayer or an invocation is not a fundamentally religious act?

It is, so what? So is having the phrase "In God We Trust" on our currency.

The 1A is exactly what prevents the government officials from mandating, prescribing, or otherwise leading prayer in public schools.

No, the 1A prevents the Federal government from establishing a state church, like the Church of England. It also is supposed to guarantee the free excercise of religion, which right was taken away in 1962.

You've yet to show that folks have in any tangible way been prevented from the free exercise of religion. All you've shown is that some have possibly been prevented from imposing their brand of religion on others.

[East of Eden]

Can you explain how a prayer or an invocation is not a fundamentally religious act?

It is, so what? So is having the phrase "In God We Trust" on our currency.

The 1A is exactly what prevents the government officials from mandating, prescribing, or otherwise leading prayer in public schools.

No, the 1A prevents the Federal government from establishing a state church, like the Church of England. It also is supposed to guarantee the free excercise of religion, which right was taken away in 1962.

You've yet to show that folks have in any tangible way been prevented from the free exercise of religion. All you've shown is that some have possibly been prevented from imposing their brand of religion on others.

Voluntary and imposition are two different things.

[JoeyKnothead]

. Voluntary and imposition are two different things.

Exactly, that's why folks who do not volunteer to be included in prayer feel imposed upon.

(edit for clarity)

[East of Eden]

. Voluntary and imposition are two different things.

Exactly, that's why folks who do not volunteer to be included in prayer feel imposed upon.

(edit for clarity)

I would bet few, if any, kids really felt imposed upon. Madylyn Murray O'Hare's kid, the alleged plaintiff who is now a pastor, didn't feel imposed on. It was his mother's jihad.

What about other things taught in public school some kids may not agree with?

[palmera]

I would bet few, if any, kids really felt imposed upon. Madylyn Murray O'Hare's kid, the alleged plaintiff who is now a pastor, didn't feel imposed on. It was his mother's jihad.

For the sake of argument, let's say you're right: that few, if any, kids would feel imposed upon -> That's exactly the problem. I mentioned earlier that the age of the students has been a factor in SCOTUS decisions regarding school prayer. At such a young age, youth are extremely impressionable; all the more reason government shouldn't meddle with their belief decisions. Also, can you show that O'Hare's child didn't feel imposed upon?

What about other things taught in public school some kids may not agree with?

Like what, Mathematics? There's a difference between a kid not agreeing with something they are taught in the classroom. Classrooms are open for discussion and questioning as part of the learning process. Prayers are used to solemnize an event (among other things of course) and are not open for debate nor intended to be interrupted because a student has a question. And for that matter it is not (constitutionally) in the teachers work description as a government official to give spiritual/religious instruction to any student.

No, the 1A prevents the Federal government from establishing a state church, like the Church of England. It also is supposed to guarantee the free excercise of religion, which right was taken away in 1962.

This is incorrect. The 1A prevents congress from making a law "respecting the establishment of religion." While this covers establishing a state religion, it covers a much wider breadth of government actions, including disallowing government officials from leading, mandating, prescribing or influencing corporate public prayer in public schools. The 1A does not simply protect a majority from the ire of the minority. Rights, like religious liberty are protected only so long as an individual or group does not infringe upon the rights of another individual or group.

School prayer fails to stand the test of establishment or free exercise. Not only does school prayer turn public schools into religious forums, it turns public schools into places of proselytism.

[East of Eden]

I would bet few, if any, kids really felt imposed upon. Madylyn Murray O'Hare's kid, the alleged plaintiff who is now a pastor, didn't feel imposed on. It was his mother's jihad.

For the sake of argument, let's say you're right: that few, if any, kids would feel imposed upon -> That's exactly the problem. I mentioned earlier that the age of the students has been a factor in SCOTUS decisions regarding school prayer. At such a young age, youth are extremely impressionable; all the more reason government shouldn't meddle with their belief decisions. Also, can you show that O'Hare's child didn't feel imposed upon?

From 'Crime' magazine, in an article on his mother's disappearance.

"Looking back, Bill Murray felt that when he stood there on the Supreme Court steps, he was just being used as a prop in his mother's battles against everything she hated in bourgeois America. It took all of his pent-up anger to wrench himself free of her orbit and having done so, all communication between them ceased. His prediction that his mother would sever all ties with him was abundantly fulfilled -- O'Hair cast him into the void with this cutting remark: "One could call this a postnatal abortion on the part of a mother, I guess; I repudiate him entirely and completely for now and all times...He is beyond human forgiveness." This denouncement demonstrated how she almost viewed herself as the god of her own universe; it was her prerogative to grant her children absolution, or even life itself.

To the evangelical movement, Bill Murray's conversion must have seemed -- literally -- heaven-sent. Many Christians and conservatives believe that the banning of school prayer marked the beginning of America's decline into immorality and crime and Murray, from his vantage point at the center of the drama, agreed with them. "In the three decades since this landmark case, the nation has lost its moral center," he wrote. "Violent crime has increased from 16.1 to 75.8 incidents per 10,000 population. Juvenile violent crime arrest rates have increased from 13.7 to 40 per 10,000 population. Teen pregnancy has almost tripled from 15.3 to 43.5 per 1,000 teenage girls. Almost half of these pregnancies end in abortion. For a startling 28 percent of all live births in America today, the mothers are unwed. The teenage suicide rate has increased 400 percent since 1963."

"I was part of the family that kicked God out of America," Murray tells his audiences today at his evangelical fundraising events. "I know the truth better than any man in America. That is why God picked me to tell it.""

[JoeyKnothead]

I would bet few, if any, kids really felt imposed upon. Madylyn Murray O'Hare's kid, the alleged plaintiff who is now a pastor, didn't feel imposed on. It was his mother's jihad.

For the sake of argument, let's say you're right: that few, if any, kids would feel imposed upon -> That's exactly the problem. I mentioned earlier that the age of the students has been a factor in SCOTUS decisions regarding school prayer. At such a young age, youth are extremely impressionable; all the more reason government shouldn't meddle with their belief decisions. Also, can you show that O'Hare's child didn't feel imposed upon?

What about other things taught in public school some kids may not agree with?

Like what, Mathematics? There's a difference between a kid not agreeing with something they are taught in the classroom. Classrooms are open for discussion and questioning as part of the learning process. Prayers are used to solemnize an event (among other things of course) and are not open for debate nor intended to be interrupted because a student has a question. And for that matter it is not (constitutionally) in the teachers work description as a government official to give spiritual/religious instruction to any student.

No, the 1A prevents the Federal government from establishing a state church, like the Church of England. It also is supposed to guarantee the free excercise of religion, which right was taken away in 1962.

This is incorrect. The 1A prevents congress from making a law "respecting the establishment of religion." While this covers establishing a state religion, it covers a much wider breadth of government actions, including disallowing government officials from leading, mandating, prescribing or influencing corporate public prayer in public schools. The 1A does not simply protect a majority from the ire of the minority. Rights, like religious liberty are protected only so long as an individual or group does not infringe upon the rights of another individual or group.

School prayer fails to stand the test of establishment or free exercise. Not only does school prayer turn public schools into religious forums, it turns public schools into places of proselytism.

Like the rest of palmera's posts, another well crafted reply.

The imposition of religion is self-evident when one requires or coerces others into prayer. Younger children, and even high school aged ones may not even know what it means to be imposed upon, therefore it is beholden on others to help ensure such does not occur. Here our teachers are the last line of defense against religious indoctrination in our classrooms.

[East of Eden]

I would bet few, if any, kids really felt imposed upon. Madylyn Murray O'Hare's kid, the alleged plaintiff who is now a pastor, didn't feel imposed on. It was his mother's jihad.

For the sake of argument, let's say you're right: that few, if any, kids would feel imposed upon -> That's exactly the problem. I mentioned earlier that the age of the students has been a factor in SCOTUS decisions regarding school prayer. At such a young age, youth are extremely impressionable; all the more reason government shouldn't meddle with their belief decisions. Also, can you show that O'Hare's child didn't feel imposed upon?

What about other things taught in public school some kids may not agree with?

Like what, Mathematics? There's a difference between a kid not agreeing with something they are taught in the classroom. Classrooms are open for discussion and questioning as part of the learning process. Prayers are used to solemnize an event (among other things of course) and are not open for debate nor intended to be interrupted because a student has a question. And for that matter it is not (constitutionally) in the teachers work description as a government official to give spiritual/religious instruction to any student.

No, the 1A prevents the Federal government from establishing a state church, like the Church of England. It also is supposed to guarantee the free excercise of religion, which right was taken away in 1962.

This is incorrect. The 1A prevents congress from making a law "respecting the establishment of religion." While this covers establishing a state religion, it covers a much wider breadth of government actions, including disallowing government officials from leading, mandating, prescribing or influencing corporate public prayer in public schools. The 1A does not simply protect a majority from the ire of the minority. Rights, like religious liberty are protected only so long as an individual or group does not infringe upon the rights of another individual or group.

School prayer fails to stand the test of establishment or free exercise. Not only does school prayer turn public schools into religious forums, it turns public schools into places of proselytism.

Like the rest of palmera's posts, another well crafted reply.

The imposition of religion is self-evident when one requires or coerces others into prayer.

They aren't required, they can opt out.

Younger children, and even high school aged ones may not even know what it means to be imposed upon, therefore it is beholden on others to help ensure such does not occur.

A high schooler can decide to have an abortion but not make the choice of whether or not to listen to an invocation?