On The Pledge Of Allegience

[JoeyKnothead]

Why is it so necessary to include the words "under God" in the pledge? The addition of these words into the pledge force many people to be unable to pledge their allegience to their own nation. Why is it more important to have a devisive term in a pledge that declares we are indivisible?

[East of Eden]

You seem to think 'God' is unconstitutional. From Joseph Story, SCOTUS justice appointed by James Madison, the 'Father of the Constitution',

I'm not sure how you concluded "'God' is unconstitutional" from what I've written thus far.... And, quoting a SCOTUS justice from who lived and 'ruled' (in the legal sense of course) over 100 years before anything we're discussing doesn't make your case any stronger. You're appealing to a time in history for authority on a matter it never touched upon. The public school system was just in the infant stages of what we know it to be today at the same time Story's life was ending.

It doesn't establish a state church by the Federal government. Can you really read the Story quotes and think the Founders would have been against a non-sectarian, voluntary prayer? Go ahead and say you don't like school prayer, but don't try and distort history and the intentions of the Founders.

Aside from the fact that we aren't living in the time of the founding of the United States of America, in what way did I "distort history and the intentions of the Founders?" Which founders? Did I distort history by bringing up the application of the Due Process clause of the 14th Amendment as it relates to the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment?

Your appeal to the authority of "the Founders" as though they spoke with one voice on the matter of religious liberty is of little use here because they didn't; nor did all Americans. That aside, the earliest legislators of the USA held prayer in session, and it seems fair to suggest that they wouldn't have been against non-sectarian prayer in public schools.

But, as I said, times have changed drastically since that time, and not all of the same practices, religious or otherwise, that occurred then, are viable options today. For instance (and this is just the tip of the iceberg), "the Founders" would have considered our voting laws today outrageous. Does that mean we should revert back to giving only land owning white males the right to vote?

And no, school prayer does not establish a fully functioning state church, but it's an un-allowable step in that direction. You still haven't explained how the 1962 decision you referenced violates the 1A.

We simply cannot have government officials prescribing prayer for children in public schools.

I bring up Joseph Story to counter the notion that the Founders were not very favorably biased to Christianty, and would have objected to school prayer. As far as voting rights, those have been extended by constitutional amendment. Perhaps we need one for prayer in school.

You say that is a step towards a state church, who is proposing a state church?

[Bio-logical]

I bring up Joseph Story to counter the notion that the Founders were not very favorably biased to Christianty, and would have objected to school prayer. As far as voting rights, those have been extended by constitutional amendment. Perhaps we need one for prayer in school.

You say that is a step towards a state church, who is proposing a state church?

Have you actually read the first amendment?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Albeit school prayer is not by any means a law, nor is a prayer breakfast nor anything else not passed through both houses and the proper channels, but the italicized words (added for emphasis) has been interpreted by the supreme court on several occasions to include far more than law only but also public policy and procedure.

The idea of school prayer, voluntary or not, is obviously respecting the establishment of a religion. Not to mean establishing as the official religion of the country but instead respecting said religion as an establishment over other religions. By allowing Christian prayer, you are respecting the established Christian religion over other established religions and as an establishment of religion over secularism.

You bring up the founding fathers being okay with school prayer, but have you read the works or personal correspondences of any of them? Most of the founding fathers were rationalists, secularists, and deists at best and I whole-heartedly believe that they would have serious contention with allowing any prayer to be recited from any particular denomination or even larger concept of religion.

Remember, the people who came to this country originally from England were pilgrims on a voyage to escape the religious persecution they encountered overseas. They came here so that they could freely exercise their religion without interference from the government, and that sentiment held true throughout the creation of this country. Wouldn't you agree that if you practiced a particular religion, say Islam for an example, you would find it to be a governmental interference of your free exercise of religion by having your children recite a Christian prayer in school? What if the tables were turned? I assume by the fact that you believe school prayer is okay that you are Christian, please correct me if I am wrong, but how would you feel if your children were expected (not forced, but pressured socially) to recite a prayer to Allah? What if the prayer was to Zeus?

I hope by now you get the picture of how prayer in school not only respects the establishment of a religion but also prohibits the free exercise thereof, but to address your final point, the founding fathers also found it fit to amend the constitution to include the right to freedom of religion, which was not included in the original text.

Amendments are meant to fix problems with old, outdated, unjust, unsuccessful or otherwise problematic parts of the original text. Creating an amendment that allows prayer in school would be the first amendment since prohibition that took rights away from citizens, and we all know how well that went. By creating an amendment that allows school prayer, we are opening the door to amendments that also take away freedom of speech and press, effectively allowing the bill of rights to be revoked one at a time and entirely change the dynamics of the country.

Therein lies the problem with the constitution: that could feasibly happen. If I believed in God, I would pray that he/she/it allowed his/her/its subjects to look beyond such persecutory practices, but from what I have seen of every religious text I have ever read, most gods would relish such an opportunity to hate on everybody else.

[East of Eden]

Have you actually read the first amendment?

Yes, it says nothing about school prayer, which makes me wonder if you have.

Albeit school prayer is not by any means a law, nor is a prayer breakfast nor anything else not passed through both houses and the proper channels, but the italicized words (added for emphasis) has been interpreted by the supreme court on several occasions to include far more than law only but also public policy and procedure.

I know how the SCOTUS interpreted it, my position they were wrong on this as they have been in the past.

The idea of school prayer, voluntary or not, is obviously respecting the establishment of a religion. Not to mean establishing as the official religion of the country but instead respecting said religion as an establishment over other religions. By allowing Christian prayer, you are respecting the established Christian religion over other established religions and as an establishment of religion over secularism.

You must have missed the earlier part of this thread, I am for a non-sectarian voluntary prayer, although an overtly Christian prayer would not be against the 1A. The Founders assumed America to be Christian, they just didn't want a particular denomination to be favored, as Joseph Story said.

You bring up the founding fathers being okay with school prayer, but have you read the works or personal correspondences of any of them? Most of the founding fathers were rationalists, secularists, and deists at best and I whole-heartedly believe that they would have serious contention with allowing any prayer to be recited from any particular denomination or even larger concept of religion.

The historical record says otherwise. See the following quotes, they sound like Jerry Falwell. They weren't even Deists, who don't believe God operated actively in man's affairs. Even Franklin (see below) didn't believe that.


John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

John Adams:
The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.
[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.
"John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |
.......click here to see this quote in its context and to see John Adams' quotes taken OUT of context!


Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all Our forefathers opened the Bible to all. [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system. [October 4, 1790]

John Quincy Adams:
Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot
Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits.

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel "Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered do we imagine we no longer need His assistance? [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Alexander Hamilton:
Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."

John Hancock:
In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness Resolved; Thursday the 11th of Mayto humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation and a Blessing on the Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nationfor the redress of Americas many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"

Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.
"The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry

It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here. [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.

John Jay:
Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers. Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.

Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson. [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]

Thomas Jefferson:
The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.

Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever. (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jeffersons Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Samuel Johnston:
It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliots Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]

James Madison
Weve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.

We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. Weve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacityto sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God. [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress

It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.

A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.
[Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same body of principal men exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government
See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning Americas Christian History: The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater]

James McHenry " Signer of the Constitution
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.

Jedediah Morse:
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."

John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg
In a sermon delivered to his Virginia congregation on Jan. 21, 1776, he preached from Ecclesiastes 3.
Arriving at verse 8, which declares that there is a time of war and a time of peace, Muhlenberg noted that this surely was not the time of peace; this was the time of war. Concluding with a prayer, and while standing in full view of the congregation, he removed his clerical robes to reveal that beneath them he was wearing the uniform of an officer in the Continental army! He marched to the back of the church; ordered the drum to beat for recruits and over three hundred men joined him, becoming the Eighth Virginia Brigade. John Peter Muhlenberg finished the Revolution as a Major-General, having been at Valley Forge and having participated in the battles of Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth, Stonypoint, and Yorktown.

Thomas Paine:
It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.
The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal. The Existence of God--1810

Benjamin Rush:
I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent themwe neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism. By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds. [Letter written (1790s) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]
Christianity is the only true and perfect religion.
If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.

"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education
Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787

Justice Joseph Story:
I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit. [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]
At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]

Noah Webster:
The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.

In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]

Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]

All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible. [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]

The Bible was Americas basic textbook
in all fields. [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

Education is useless without the Bible [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]

George Washington:

Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."


It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.

What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ. [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words So help me God! to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

Nelly Custis-Lewis (Washingtons adopted daughter):
Is it necessary that any one should [ask], Did General Washington avow himself to be a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."

O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.
I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.
[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]

"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]

James Wilson:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention

"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]

________________________________________________________________________
Public Institutions
Liberty Bell Inscription:
Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof [Leviticus 25:10]

Proposals for the seal of the United States of America
Moses lifting his wand and dividing the Red Sea "Ben Franklin

The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. --Thomas Jefferson

On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it

Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20, 1776.

Another popular proposal to the Great Seal of the United States was:
" Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"; with Pharoah's army drowning in the Red Sea

The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.

Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
"I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

New York Spectator. August 23, 1831
The court of common pleas of Chester county, [New York] rejected a witness who declared his disbelief in the existence of God. The presiding judge remarked that he had not before been aware that there was a man living who did not believe in the existence of God; that this belief constituted the sanction of all testimony in a court of justice: and that he knew of no cause in a Christian country where a witness had been permitted to testify without such belief.

Remember, the people who came to this country originally from England were pilgrims on a voyage to escape the religious persecution they encountered overseas. They came here so that they could freely exercise their religion without interference from the government, and that sentiment held true throughout the creation of this country. Wouldn't you agree that if you practiced a particular religion, say Islam for an example, you would find it to be a governmental interference of your free exercise of religion by having your children recite a Christian prayer in school? What if the tables were turned? I assume by the fact that you believe school prayer is okay that you are Christian, please correct me if I am wrong, but how would you feel if your children were expected (not forced, but pressured socially) to recite a prayer to Allah? What if the prayer was to Zeus?

Again, I want a non-sectarian prayer, which would not offend Muslims.

[Bio-logical]

I know how the SCOTUS interpreted it, my position they were wrong on this as they have been in the past.

I can't argue against you opinion any more than saying on this I side with those who have much more judicial experience than either of us.

You must have missed the earlier part of this thread, I am for a non-sectarian voluntary prayer, although an overtly Christian prayer would not be against the 1A. The Founders assumed America to be Christian, they just didn't want a particular denomination to be favored, as Joseph Story said.

How is any prayer non-sectarian? Even if it is to God in general it excludes atheists and many Buddhists. You are wrong about the founding fathers assuming the country to be Christian however as signed by John Adams, one of the most quoted men of your uncited quote source

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)

The historical record says otherwise. See the following quotes, they sound like Jerry Falwell. They weren't even Deists, who don't believe God operated actively in man's affairs. Even Franklin (see below) didn't believe that.

The following quotes by many of the same men are not only on their own religious belief, but also on their interpretations of religion in government.
http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?id=6177

John Adams (the second President of the United States)

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):
"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.'"

From a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

Additional quotes from John Adams:
"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

"The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"...Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."


Thomas Jefferson (the third President of the United States)

Jefferson's interpretation of the first amendment in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (January 1, 1802):
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

From Jefferson's biography:
"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.'"

Jefferson's "The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom":
"Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry....The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

From Thomas Jefferson's Bible:
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

Jefferson's Notes on Virginia:
"Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments. To make way for these free inquiry must be indulged; how can we wish others to indulge it while we refuse ourselves? But every state, says an inquisitor, has established some religion. No two, say I, have established the same. Is this a proof of the infallibility of establishments?"

Additional quotes from Thomas Jefferson:
"It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."

"They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition of their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the alter of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

"In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear....Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue on the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you."

"Christianity...[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man....Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

"...that our civil rights have no dependence on religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics and geometry."


James Madison (the fourth President of the United States)

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments:
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

Additional quote from James Madison:
"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."


Benjamin Franklin

From Franklin's autobiography, p. 66:
"My parents had given me betimes religious impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself."

From Franklin's autobiography, p. 66:
"...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."


Thomas Paine

From The Age of Reason, pp. 89:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of....Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all."

From The Age of Reason:
"All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

From The Age of Reason:
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."

From The Age of Reason:
"What is it the Bible teaches us? -- rapine, cruelty, and murder."

From The Age of Reason:
"Loving of enemies is another dogma of feigned morality, and has beside no meaning....Those who preach the doctrine of loving their enemies are in general the greatest prosecutors, and they act consistently by so doing; for the doctrine is hypocritical, and it is natural that hypocrisy should act the reverse of what it preaches."

From The Age of Reason:
"The Bible was established altogether by the sword, and that in the worst use of it -- not to terrify but to extirpate."

Additional quote from Thomas Paine:
"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."


Ethan Allen

From Religion of the American Enlightenment:
"Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian."

Again, I want a non-sectarian prayer, which would not offend Muslims.

Muslims are often offended by cartoons... seriously though I have no idea what you mean by "non-sectarian". In my opinion, any prayer is necessarily sectarian at least to the point of mono-theism, to which not all Americans adhere and therefore it would (once again) impinge upon their right to free exercise of their religion or lack thereof.

On a personal note, I think that the simple fact that we need an amendment in the constitution allowing people to choose whichever delusion they would like is as ridiculous as a guaranteed right to believe in superheroes and Santa Clause, but I am happy to oblige people who choose to have faith in something that goes against all rationality just as long as they keep it to themselves.

[East of Eden]

How is any prayer non-sectarian?

Ask our president. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03043.html

Even if it is to God in general it excludes atheists and many Buddhists.

And if you teach about human rights and democracy you exclude radical Islamists.

You are wrong about the founding fathers assuming the country to be Christian however as signed by John Adams, one of the most quoted men of your uncited quote source

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)

You're really reaching when you quote the Treaty of Tripoli. Although Adams signed that treaty, that quote didn't originate with him. It probably meant no more than the obvious fact the US doesn't have an official state religion and so, has no quarell with Islam.

The following quotes by many of the same men are not only on their own religious belief, but also on their interpretations of religion in government.
http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?id=6177
John Adams (the second President of the United States)

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

Addressed above.

From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):
"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.'"

Thankfully he never broke through to that point.

From a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

Would like to see that in context.

Additional quotes from John Adams:
"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

Many Christian denominations do not have Creeds and Confessions. So what?

"The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

That can be true. He's not denying the divinity of Jesus.

"...Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

He's saying we were not founded on the divine rights of Kings. I agree.

Thomas Jefferson (the third President of the United States)

Jefferson's interpretation of the first amendment in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (January 1, 1802):
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

From Jefferson's biography:
"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.'"

Jefferson's "The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom":
"Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry....The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

From Thomas Jefferson's Bible:
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

Jefferson's Notes on Virginia:
"Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments. To make way for these free inquiry must be indulged; how can we wish others to indulge it while we refuse ourselves? But every state, says an inquisitor, has established some religion. No two, say I, have established the same. Is this a proof of the infallibility of establishments?"

Additional quotes from Thomas Jefferson:
"It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."

"They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition of their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the alter of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

"In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear....Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue on the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you."

"Christianity...[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man....Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."

"...that our civil rights have no dependence on religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics and geometry."

I never claimed Jefferson and Franklin were orthodox Christians. They were an aberration among the founders. I think they have a different opinion now. Was Paine , that champion of the bloody French Revolution, considered a founder? Late in life John Adams called Paine's 'Common Sense' a "crapulous mass."

James Madison (the fourth President of the United States)

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments:
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

Additional quote from James Madison:
"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Apparently arguing against a state church.

Benjamin Franklin

From Franklin's autobiography, p. 66:
"My parents had given me betimes religious impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself."

From Franklin's autobiography, p. 66:
"...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."


Thomas Paine

From The Age of Reason, pp. 89:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of....Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all."

From The Age of Reason:
"All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

From The Age of Reason:
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."

From The Age of Reason:
"What is it the Bible teaches us? -- rapine, cruelty, and murder."

From The Age of Reason:
"Loving of enemies is another dogma of feigned morality, and has beside no meaning....Those who preach the doctrine of loving their enemies are in general the greatest prosecutors, and they act consistently by so doing; for the doctrine is hypocritical, and it is natural that hypocrisy should act the reverse of what it preaches."

From The Age of Reason:
"The Bible was established altogether by the sword, and that in the worst use of it -- not to terrify but to extirpate."

Additional quote from Thomas Paine:
"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible."


Ethan Allen

From Religion of the American Enlightenment:
"Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian."

Muslims are often offended by cartoons... seriously though I have no idea what you mean by "non-sectarian". In my opinion, any prayer is necessarily sectarian at least to the point of mono-theism, to which not all Americans adhere and therefore it would (once again) impinge upon their right to free exercise of their religion or lack thereof.

On a personal note, I think that the simple fact that we need an amendment in the constitution allowing people to choose whichever delusion they would like is as ridiculous as a guaranteed right to believe in superheroes and Santa Clause,

As you are free to believe in your delusion there is no God.

but I am happy to oblige people who choose to have faith in something that goes against all rationality just as long as they keep it to themselves.

It's not going to happen. Ever hear of the Great Commission?

[kayky]

Even if there were such a thing as a nonsectarian prayer, praying is a religious act and does not belong in the public school classroom.

[JoeyKnothead]

Even if there were such a thing as a nonsectarian prayer, praying is a religious act and does not belong in the public school classroom.

I'll finish the statement by saying "as a sanctioned event overseen by an authority".

As cnorman18 has pointed out, there is no prohibition against student led prayer when it is not disruptive to the class - no hopping up in the middle of a lesson and organizing a prayer.

[Bio-logical]

Ask our president. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03043.html

What's funny is I read that article and several others about these so called "non-sectarian prayers" but I was unable to find a transcript of even one. Would you mind posting an example?

And if you teach about human rights and democracy you exclude radical Islamists.

But teaching about those things has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with constitutional rights. This would be a classic red herring.

You're really reaching when you quote the Treaty of Tripoli. Although Adams signed that treaty, that quote didn't originate with him. It probably meant no more than the obvious fact the US doesn't have an official state religion and so, has no quarell with Islam.

Adams, one of the most quoted religious presidents spoke not only about how America was in no way a Christian nation, but he also poke in the other quotes about religion being a bad thing - so I think it means he meant what he signed or at least knew that his personal beliefs were less important than the truth of the constitution.

Thankfully he never broke through to that point

Twenty times! I could get it if he thought it once or twice, but twenty is a large amount of times to not only doubt your own religion, but think that world would be a better place without it. I do agree though that it is good he never tok the plunge far enough to attempt to outlaw religion, but I think that that effort would be just as unsuccessful as establishing a state religion would hopefully be.

Would like to see that in context.

Me too, but I'm sorry I can't find it.

Many Christian denominations do not have Creeds and Confessions. So what?

Which ones would those be exactly?

That can be true. He's not denying the divinity of Jesus.

You got me on that quote. here it is in context:

The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.

He's saying we were not founded on the divine rights of Kings. I agree.

Let's take another look at that quote.

"...Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

He is saying that America was founded without the authority of anything supernatural and that it is a great thing for mankind that we have put such trust in the hands of people [instead of some improvable diety]

I never claimed Jefferson and Franklin were orthodox Christians. They were an aberration among the founders. I think they have a different opinion now. Was Paine , that champion of the bloody French Revolution, considered a founder? Late in life John Adams called Paine's 'Common Sense' a "crapulous mass."

Paine may not have been a founder, but he was in regular correspondence with many of them and his writings have been shown to be influential to them. He was also one of their contemporaries and one of the most respected intellectuals of his time.

Apparently arguing against a state church.

The first one may have been, but this one is most definitely not just about that:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

note how it does not say religion exists in greater purity when the government is not mixed in, it says both are purer without mixing in each other. Government stays out of religion, religion stays out of government, they go hand in hand.

As you are free to believe in your delusion there is no God

.
How exactly is this a delusion?

delusion

A false belief held despite strong evidence against it; self-deception. Delusions are common in some forms of psychosis. Dictionary.com
(italicized for emphasis)

It's not going to happen. Ever hear of the Great Commission?

Kinda my point. When we let prayer happen in school, Christians are compelled to take the opportunity to proselytize. If we could ever actually allow prayer and have it be somehow non-religious (which is impossible by definition), it would still give religious people the idea that they should use it as an opportunity to preach, especially those not participating.

[East of Eden]

Even if there were such a thing as a nonsectarian prayer, praying is a religious act and does not belong in the public school classroom.

Your opinion. There is nothing in the Contsitution to prevent an invocation in a classroom, Congress, or the Supreme Court.

[Sir Rhetor]

Our school says the pledge every day. I'm in Gym that hour that the pledge is said, in the locker room, so nobody says it there.

I can understand how some people can be offended by the pledge. But really, it is just words. They cannot tell me what to believe.

I hardly see the pledge as at all effective. Making people say the pledge every day will not do anything.

I think that the true intention of the words "under God" are meant as a reminder that the USA is not invincible and that there are higher entities/ideologies that could ruin the nation.