Christianity and homosexuality

sledheavy · Post by **sledheavy** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:37 pm

ok, so I've been wanting to just ask this for a freakin' while. And frankly I love the comment because everyone I know (i.e. conserv. republican types) that hear it gets CoMpLeTeLy pissed.

If god didn't desire gays, why did he create a prostate? Or more corrrectly, why'd he put it so close to the anus?

maybe this was already discussed on the forum, but I swear the reaction is classic.

Honestly though. I think it's interesting that the majority of classic nations (if politically correct) all experienced some form of homosexuality along their timeline.

Dale · Post by **Dale** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:10 am

Hello AClockWorkOrange!

"If god didnt create sin, what did, if he does not like, why doesnt he get rid of it, if he didnt create it and he cant get rid of it, then he isnt omnipotent." - AClockWorkOrange

No, God did not create sin. Sin was born from within Lucifer out of pride and in His perfect timing He will "get rid of it".

If God chose to "get rid of" sin immediately (which He could do), that would mean getting rid of all of us as we are indwelt with sin.

Thankfully, God--who is omnipotent--is also merciful and has taken away the sin problem for Christians. But he doesn't want any of us to die with a sin problem. Instead he wants us all to come to know Him.

"If it came before him, or sin exists alongside and outside of gods control, is sin a god too?" - AClockWorkOrange

A very simplistic answer is that sin is the opposite of God's will. So if there were no God, there could be no sin as nothing would be against His will.

So while God did not create sin, it could not exist without Him.

"if god is all powerful and the alpha, then all evils come from him; no denying. If they dont, then god is not in control." - AClockWorkOrange

Why do you think that evil must come from God for Him to be in control? Is it not possible that sin could exist seperate from God and regardless of what sin may do, God, in his omnipotence, could turn it around and use it for good?

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:20 am

Dale wrote:No, God did not create sin. Sin was born from within Lucifer out of pride and in His perfect timing He will "get rid of it".

And who (or is it Who?) created Lucifer and allowed Lucifer out of the quarantine that one would expect from a benevolent God?

Dale wrote:If God chose to "get rid of" sin immediately (which He could do), that would mean getting rid of all of us as we are indwelt with sin.

Thankfully, God--who is omnipotent--is also merciful and has taken away the sin problem for Christians. But he doesn't want any of us to die with a sin problem. Instead he wants us all to come to know Him.

Then why did he not head the problem off at the pass? Why fix a problem when it could have been prevented?

Dale · Post by **Dale** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:03 am

Hello McCulloch,

"And who (or is it Who?) created Lucifer and allowed Lucifer out of the quarantine that one would expect from a benevolent God?" - McCulloch

God created Lucifer. But why do you think that there has to be a quarantine? And why does God have to provide a quarantine to be benovolent?

"Then why did he not head the problem off at the pass? Why fix a problem when it could have been prevented?" - McCulloch

I don't kow. My guess is that since he has given each of us a mind and a will, we are free to choose our own way. Lucifer made his choice.

Have you made yours?

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 10:10 am

Dale wrote:Hello McCulloch,

"And who (or is it Who?) created Lucifer and allowed Lucifer out of the quarantine that one would expect from a benevolent God?" - McCulloch

God created Lucifer. But why do you think that there has to be a quarantine? And why does God have to provide a quarantine to be benovolent?

"Then why did he not head the problem off at the pass? Why fix a problem when it could have been prevented?" - McCulloch

I don't kow. My guess is that since he has given each of us a mind and a will, we are free to choose our own way. Lucifer made his choice.

Have you made yours?

Did not God create Lucifier? Did not God know what Lucifer would do even before he created him? If you make a bomb, and then leave it laying in a school yard for children to be found, would not you be considered responsible for any injuries that occured?

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:08 am

Dale wrote:God created Lucifer. But why do you think that there has to be a quarantine? And why does God have to provide a quarantine to be benevolent?

Are you OK with the idea that a benevolent God created the personification of Evil, the great deceiver, the one who brought sin into the world, and then allowed that one to lead the majority of those God loves, created in His image, to everlasting torment, when he could have simply prevented Lucifer from coming in contact with humans? Maybe you and I have a difference of opinion about what constitutes benevolence.

Dale wrote:My guess is that since he has given each of us a mind and a will, we are free to choose our own way.

Why not just give each of us a mind and a will? Why provide an evil deceiver as well? Why provide such an effective evil deceiver?

Dale wrote:Have you made yours?

The on-line altar call. "Come forward and accept Jesus into your heart! "

Dale · Post by **Dale** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:48 pm

Hello McCullogh & Goat,

"Are you OK with the idea that a benevolent God created the personification of Evil, the great deceiver, the one who brought sin into the world..." - McCullogh

"Did not God create Lucifier?" - Goat

God did not create Satan. God created Lucifer who--through his own devices--became Satan.

"...and then allowed that one to lead the majority of those God loves, created in His image, to everlasting torment, when he could have simply prevented Lucifer from coming in contact with humans?" - McCulloch

Santan leads many into torment not because God did not prevent it. Satan does so because man allows it. (James 4:7).

"Did not God know what Lucifer would do even before he created him?" - Goat

Did God know you would sin and do evil before you were born? Yes. And He created you anyway.

"Maybe you and I have a difference of opinion about what constitutes benevolence." - McCulloch

benevolence:
"1. desire to do good to others; goodwill; charitableness: to be filled with benevolence toward one's fellow creatures.
2. an act of kindness; a charitable gift."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/benevolence

"Why not just give each of us a mind and a will? Why provide an evil deceiver as well? Why provide such an effective evil deceiver?" - McCulloch

Not even God asked for Satan just as he does not ask us to do anything against His will. Yes, Satan is effective and God has given us His Word which holds the truth, a mind to discern that truth and a will to follow it.

"The on-line altar call. 'Come forward and accept Jesus into your heart! '" - McCulloch

I never thought of it like that. That's funny!

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:50 pm

[quote="Dale"]Hello McCullogh,

"Are you OK with the idea that a benevolent God created the personification of Evil, the great deceiver, the one who brought sin into the world..." - McCullogh

God did not create Satan. God created Lucifer who--through his own devices--became Satan.
[quote]

And the difference is?? If God is omnicient, then he would have known this would have to occur, and could have prevented it.

Dale · Post by **Dale** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:02 pm

Hello Goat,

I did not notice your reply immediately. I apologize. When I did notice it, I went back and edited my original offering to include both you and McCulloch. Does my edited post answer your question?

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:02 pm

Dale wrote:God did not create Satan. God created Lucifer who--through his own devices--became Satan.

I fail to see the distinction. God created Lucifer who changed into Satan, therefore God created Satan.

Dale wrote:Satan leads many into torment not because God did not prevent it. Satan does so because man allows it. (James 4:7).

If God prevented it, it would not have happened.

Dale wrote:Did God know you would sin and do evil before you were born? Yes. And He created you anyway.

God loves Satan?

Dale wrote:benevolence:
"1. desire to do good to others; goodwill; charitableness: to be filled with benevolence toward one's fellow creatures.
2. an act of kindness; a charitable gift."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/benevolence

Would you call me benevolent towards my cats if I let loose a ferocious angry tiger where they are?

micatala · Post by **micatala** » Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:20 am

It seems to me we have several items that need to be clarified.

1. Regardless of the manner of creation, if we hold that God is the ultimate creator, does that make him responsible for everything that happens in creation?

2. Regardless of the reason, assuming God created man with free will, does this remove responsibility from God for man's actions?

3. Does man's free will implicitly limit God's omnipotence?

Now, animals are not commonly thought to possess free will. THey are considered part of creation. If homosexuality exists in animals, then it is a part of creation and is natural. If the only reason we would not make God responsible for what happens in creation is free will, then God is responsible for homosexuality. Biologically, it seems to me man is also a part of creation, and so homosexuality in man is also 'natural', and thus, created by God.

Now, if we take that the discussion should center on whether homosexuality or homosexual acts are always sinful, then we might go back to Dale's definition of sin a few posts back.

Dale wrote: A very simplistic answer is that sin is the opposite of God's will. So if there were no God, there could be no sin as nothing would be against His will.

So while God did not create sin, it could not exist without Him.

Would we agree with this definition? Is it complete or are there other aspects of what constitutes sin?

Another definition I have heard is that sin is an act or attitude which separates one from God. In this definition, the defining factor is not the act, but it's effect on ones relationship with God. Under this definition, it is possible that act A is sinful when committed by X but not sinful when committed by Y. Romans 14 is one passage where this possibility is discussed. An act which is committed 'without faith' or 'not in good conscience' is sinful.

I have proposed that if homosexuals can come to no other conclusion than that God made them that way, and if they have prayed and are clear in their conscience that homosexuality or homosexual sex is not sinful, then they are probably right. Given that Christians in general allow individual Christians to decide on their own which Biblical proscriptions are sinful (for them) and which are not, I would suggest the appropriate thing to do is follow the same practice with respect to homosexuality. Given that we allow sexual expression for heterosexuals, we should do the same for homosexuals.