Legislating religion

Two hot topics for the price of one

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4gold
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Legislating religion

Post #1

Post by 4gold »

Where did we get this notion that legislating religion is unconstitutional?

After the First Amendment was ratified, 8 of the 13 states levied and collected taxes to support an official state church. This practice continued until the early 1800s, not because the Courts struck it down, but because the People of the States no longer wanted to support an official state church.

Members of the first Congress that ratified the First Amendment voted to appoint and pay a chaplain to pray before each House.

Throughout the US's history, the courts have upheld religious laws, such as:

Congress may pay a chaplain to pray before the sessions, even if one denomination is clearly favored over all the others (Marsh v Chambers)

Taxpayers have no standing to sue against taxpayer-funded faith-based initiatives (Hein v Freedom from Religion)

Taxpayers have no standing to sue on government surpluses given to religious charities without regard to other secular charities (Valley Forge Christian College v Americans United for Separation of Church and State)

Also known as the two-reindeer rule, taxpayers may fund Nativity Scenes, so long as there are secular items displayed with the Nativity (Lynch v Donnelly)

Tax-exemptions for religious organizations are Constitutional (Walz v Tax Comm'n of the City of New York)

A law that "harmonizes with religious canons" is not inherently unconstitutional (McGowan v Maryland)

I could go on and on with historical examples, as well as Court precedent, but I think you get the idea. I have no idea where the concept that religious law is a violation of the First Amendment came from, but it lacks historical context, as well as judicial precedent.

In fact, I'd argue quite the opposite! The First Amendment allows for religious legislations, so long as the receptor of the law is an adult, and therefore not susceptible to religious indoctrination (Tilton v Richardson) or enforced on others via peer pressure (Abington v Schemp). The majority of First Amendment cases have dealt with schools, because children are more susceptible to religious indoctrination, and so the Courts have protected them from government-enforced religion. But adults are certainly not exempt from government-enforced religious laws!

The most common rebuttal I get to this argument is, "I won't enforce my morality on you, so don't enforce your morality on me." This is a fine argument, but it is completely unenforceable, unless we lived in an anarchy! If every federal spending bill had to be within the confines of the moral codes of all 300 million Americans, nothing would get done!

So my questions for debate are the following:
  • What would be acceptable religious laws?
  • What should the Constitutional limits on religious laws be?
  • Even though religious laws are Constitutional, they are not necessary. Should we even legislate our religious values?
  • How is anyone harmed by viewing a Ten Commandments display, or listening to a prayer before Congress, or seeing a Nativity scene?
  • Would an ideal society be pluralistic or secular?

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Post #21

Post by Goat »

4gold wrote:
goat wrote: you have a situation where the government is promoting one religion over another. This is unconstitutional.
How so?

Doesn't prayer to the Judeo-Christian God promote one religion over another? Yet, this has been ruled Constitutional.
That is because prayer to other than the Judeo Christian god is also allowed

The Supreme Court of Alabama said this was an unconstitutional display. When it comes to their constitution,they are the final word.

You might disagree, but the highest state court for the State of Alabama ruled differently.

Beto

Post #22

Post by Beto »

4gold wrote:If you have an example of a jury who was biased because of a Ten Commandments display, I'm all ears.
Wait a second... you mean the commandments ARE on display? I thought this was all hypothetical.
4gold wrote:I would think most people would be against murder before they ever stepped foot into a courtroom.
Didn't I say "self-defense"? Did I imply the opposite of what your saying? Read the posts more carefully, please...

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ten commandments in court

Post #23

Post by r~ »

Beto wrote:How does a "Thou shalt not kill" paraded in a court not influence a jury in a self-defense killing case? "The jury will ignore the commandment as this case is exceptional"...? Who decides if it's "murder" or "kill" written up there?

The Word 'kill' in place of the Word 'murder' will prejudice a jury that knows the difference between the Words but does not know the spirit behind the Commandment. The Words "Thou shall not commit adultery" will prejudice a jury that does not recognize the difference between sin and crime; even if it is an unrelated sin being called a 'crime'.

I am sure this can be tested if still you do not believe.

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Post #24

Post by r~ »

4gold wrote:What is vice law? What does it have to do with Ten Commandment displays?
Vice laws are those laws that deny liberty in the name of 'morals' or 'sins' or 'society'. If it has to do with prohibition of drugs or sex, it is a vice law. The prominent placement of the Ten Commandments in a courtroom will prejudice gullible juries that it is just for mankind to judge and condemn sins as crime.

I would suggest that the prominent placement of the Pledge of Liberty over the Ten Commandments might sufficiently neutralize any residual prejudice contained in Historical Religious Documents.

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Post #25

Post by r~ »

4gold wrote:
goat wrote: you have a situation where the government is promoting one religion over another. This is unconstitutional.
How so?
Doesn't prayer to the Judeo-Christian God promote one religion over another? Yet, this has been ruled Constitutional.
Was it prayer to the Judeo-Christian God, or prayer to the God of all that was ruled Constitutional?

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Post #26

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Some actions (murder, rape) are so detrimental to society as whole that they should be condemned by any reasonable person. This would be a sound law whether religiously inspired or not.

Some actions (adultery) are fuzzier. The majority of people may want to make this a crime, while others would see this as between those two people. So in this case my take is that it is grounds for divorce, but not necessarily grounds to jail someone, or otherwise place them in legal trouble. So here is where it is important to elect wise leaders.

Some actions (Alcohol on Sunday) are clearly a matter of whether you want to drink or go to church. These kind of laws are what upset me the most. Where a law is in place to placate someone's *morals* as opposed to its effect on society as a whole, this is where the problem lies.

So my opinion is government must act to protect the freedoms of the minority from the oppression of the majority. Where there is a question of freedom vs morality, then freedom should always prevail.

So there's no confusion, actions which shock the conscience of a reasonable person are probably not a moral issue, but a societal issue. Acts that upset someone because they think they are wrong, though no victim exists, then these should be treated with the utmost respect for the freedom of the individual.

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We hold these truths

Post #27

Post by r~ »

joeyknuccione wrote: ..So my opinion is government must act to protect the freedoms of the minority from the oppression of the majority. Where there is a question of freedom vs morality, then freedom should always prevail.
Amen.

We the People hold that all are bourn with full right of peaceful and well regulated pursuit of happiness.
We the People hold that governments are instituted to secure these rights through regulation and justice.

This is where We got the notion that legislating religion is unconstitutional

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