Is peace in the Middle East Possible?
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youngborean
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Is peace in the Middle East Possible?
Post #1I believe the Middle East is at a unique point in its history. After 50 years of the existence of Nation States in the area, coupled with 50 years of fighting over borders there seems to be an attitude growing that peace is possible at this juncture. I will offer up pluralism as the my for peace in the middle East. So I will phrase the question like this. With the strong divide between religious and political ideals that have developed in the Middle East, is a tolerant atmosphere that promotes pluralism possible at this point? And as a side question, why does this issue raise such concern for people around the world?
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a.elhusseini
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Post #21
You might start with making a more sound comparision, say Bin Laden and Eric Rudolph.. the list goes on and on from both sides.
I see you have noted down a number of Ayat/Verses which may seemingly appear to be gory and violent. Yet after careful examination of every verse, i came to a conclusion: 1- ur an ignorant jackass 2- ur a very ignorant jackass
My guess is that its either you carefully pulled out those verses from Quran, or you copied them off a website. Plz allow me to correct you first of all by saying that THE VERSES PICKED OUT ARE INCOMPLETE, INCORRECTLY MERGED AND ALTERED for you i have an accurate description: low-life bastard.
Again you have re-proved my point by showing me that you know NOTHING about the history of the Quran. Here is a brief outlook: The Quran was sent down over a period of 23 yrs, two types of Surahs/Chapters exist some were sent down in Mecca and others in Medinah. I also would like to point out that each single verse has a story and a reason behind it. The Meccan verses differ from the Madinah verses by one thing, the Meccan verses have were the ones sent down in Mecca when Muhammad(pbh) was preaching to the ignorant violent idol worshipping bedions who threatened to kill him. Later in Medinah other Surrahs were sent down to people with faith.
When one seeks to understand a text he/she usually 'reads in context' meaning read before and after the part we wish to understand, as in the Quran every Aya' before and after verse is read and then analyzed accordingly. In many of the Ayat you provided God warns us of a strict punishment, yet in the verse following it he reminds us how generous and kind he is.
What i seem to notice in almost all the verses is the mention of 'fire and hell' which is god's eternal punishment to the wrong-doers. I could link this to our current judicial systems. When one commits murder, the authority directly investigates and puts behind bars the one responsible. Thats clearly the punishment of such a deed, every person commiting such an act is aware of the consequence. So is the case when god warns us over and over not to do such acts warning us about the consequence.
Anyhow every single verse is justified which is what you havent given thought to. If you wish for more details regarding those verses i will study them as should and reply.For now i leave with some verses from the bible.
_______________________________________________________
GOD prohibiting brothers from marrying their biological sisters after He initially allowed it for Abraham and Sarah:
"And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. (Genesis 20:12)"
Eating swine while it is prohibited in the Bible.
"And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you. (Leviticus 11:7-8)".....
________________________________________________________
Plz let us not approach those topics again and focus back on the main topic, but if you once again wish to discuss religion, then i am more than glad to show how foolish you are
I see you have noted down a number of Ayat/Verses which may seemingly appear to be gory and violent. Yet after careful examination of every verse, i came to a conclusion: 1- ur an ignorant jackass 2- ur a very ignorant jackass
My guess is that its either you carefully pulled out those verses from Quran, or you copied them off a website. Plz allow me to correct you first of all by saying that THE VERSES PICKED OUT ARE INCOMPLETE, INCORRECTLY MERGED AND ALTERED for you i have an accurate description: low-life bastard.
Again you have re-proved my point by showing me that you know NOTHING about the history of the Quran. Here is a brief outlook: The Quran was sent down over a period of 23 yrs, two types of Surahs/Chapters exist some were sent down in Mecca and others in Medinah. I also would like to point out that each single verse has a story and a reason behind it. The Meccan verses differ from the Madinah verses by one thing, the Meccan verses have were the ones sent down in Mecca when Muhammad(pbh) was preaching to the ignorant violent idol worshipping bedions who threatened to kill him. Later in Medinah other Surrahs were sent down to people with faith.
When one seeks to understand a text he/she usually 'reads in context' meaning read before and after the part we wish to understand, as in the Quran every Aya' before and after verse is read and then analyzed accordingly. In many of the Ayat you provided God warns us of a strict punishment, yet in the verse following it he reminds us how generous and kind he is.
What i seem to notice in almost all the verses is the mention of 'fire and hell' which is god's eternal punishment to the wrong-doers. I could link this to our current judicial systems. When one commits murder, the authority directly investigates and puts behind bars the one responsible. Thats clearly the punishment of such a deed, every person commiting such an act is aware of the consequence. So is the case when god warns us over and over not to do such acts warning us about the consequence.
Anyhow every single verse is justified which is what you havent given thought to. If you wish for more details regarding those verses i will study them as should and reply.For now i leave with some verses from the bible.
_______________________________________________________
GOD prohibiting brothers from marrying their biological sisters after He initially allowed it for Abraham and Sarah:
"And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. (Genesis 20:12)"
Eating swine while it is prohibited in the Bible.
"And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you. (Leviticus 11:7-8)".....
________________________________________________________
Plz let us not approach those topics again and focus back on the main topic, but if you once again wish to discuss religion, then i am more than glad to show how foolish you are
Post #22
Here is a blurb from yahoo as it came up when I turned on my computer this morning.
What then is your opinion of a person that would plan and carry out a murder where they are provided a bunch of explosives, form them into a piece of clothing, walk into a place full of innocent people, and then detonate that explosive killing all sorts of innocent people?
Is this your final answer?
And do Muslims follow the advice given to kill non-believers today? It appears from watching the news and even Al Jazeera, that they do.
In what civilized country are tourists and civilian workers abducted by Muslims and beheaded? I'm sorry the "made-up video" accusation is not a valid defense.
I realize that most Muslims are not seeking to kill non-believers, but that does not change the Qur'an and this current history of Islamic violence carrying on the millenia-old violence of the sword of Allah.
The god Allah does not warn non-Muslims nor do Muslims have the right to "punish" non-believers. If he does he should do it in languages they understand and Allah should carry out the Jihad himself. I wish Allah would send the world a peaceful preacher like Billy Graham instead of yet one more would-be conqueror like Bin Laden one after the other.
But again we get bonechilling Muslim reality in regards to violence towards people that refuse to ever follow Muhammad's vision:
In the news.
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News - Popular - Sports - Stocks
What is your opinion of a suicide bomber that is also using the Qur'an's violent passages in context?a.elhusseini wrote: I see you have noted down a number of Ayat/Verses which may seemingly appear to be gory and violent. Yet after careful examination of every verse, i came to a conclusion: 1- ur an ignorant jackass 2- ur a very ignorant jackass
a.elhusseini wrote:
My guess is that its either you carefully pulled out those verses from Quran, or you copied them off a website. Plz allow me to correct you first of all by saying that THE VERSES PICKED OUT ARE INCOMPLETE, INCORRECTLY MERGED AND ALTERED for you i have an accurate description: low-life bastard.
What then is your opinion of a person that would plan and carry out a murder where they are provided a bunch of explosives, form them into a piece of clothing, walk into a place full of innocent people, and then detonate that explosive killing all sorts of innocent people?
Is this your final answer?
.a.elhusseini wrote:
Anyhow every single verse is justified which is what you havent given thought to. If you wish for more details regarding those verses i will study them as should and reply.For now i leave with some verses from the bible
And do Muslims follow the advice given to kill non-believers today? It appears from watching the news and even Al Jazeera, that they do.
I wwish jihad-terrorists would let Allah do the punishing and not do it themselves.What i seem to notice in almost all the verses is the mention of 'fire and hell' which is god's eternal punishment to the wrong-doers.
I could link this to our current judicial systems.
In what civilized country are tourists and civilian workers abducted by Muslims and beheaded? I'm sorry the "made-up video" accusation is not a valid defense.
Using Sharia Law or justice? Most Western countries do not even have the death penalty and in the US the death sentence is carried out in the states that allow it, after years of appeals. In a Jihad, little groups of Muslims carry out the death penalty to others while following the Qur'an.When one commits murder, the authority directly investigates and puts behind bars the one responsible.
I realize that most Muslims are not seeking to kill non-believers, but that does not change the Qur'an and this current history of Islamic violence carrying on the millenia-old violence of the sword of Allah.
Thats clearly the punishment of such a deed, every person commiting such an act is aware of the consequence. So is the case when god warns us over and over not to do such acts warning us about the consequence.
The god Allah does not warn non-Muslims nor do Muslims have the right to "punish" non-believers. If he does he should do it in languages they understand and Allah should carry out the Jihad himself. I wish Allah would send the world a peaceful preacher like Billy Graham instead of yet one more would-be conqueror like Bin Laden one after the other.
But again we get bonechilling Muslim reality in regards to violence towards people that refuse to ever follow Muhammad's vision:
It is telling that if every sigle verse finds justification in today's modern world, then peace anywhere people believe this religion is not possible, let alone the middle east. I believe France and Australia are good case studies.Anyhow every single verse is justified which is what you havent given thought to. If you wish for more details regarding those verses i will study them as should and reply. For now i leave with some verses from the bible.
Post #23
Remember I am not an unbeliever of Islam, I am a non-believer and will never be a follower of Islam. Not even with a saw or an AK-47 to my neck to urge my conversion to any "religion of peace."
So I will turn the topic of peace in the Middle East to passages of Peace in religious texts of Christians and Muslims. As you say, "a more sound comparison."
I'll start my comparison of what God to worship right here. It is why Billy Graham and I follow Christ Jesus the Son of God. And, where peace in the middle east will come from.
(Now, if we are to compare peace passages of our chosen religious texts that also apply to people that refuse to follow our chosen religious texts, you will see peace in the middle east. The killing in the name of any god has to stop though.)
Matthew 5
So I will turn the topic of peace in the Middle East to passages of Peace in religious texts of Christians and Muslims. As you say, "a more sound comparison."
Really? Please post a Hindu, Jew, Budhist, Christian, Mormon (they have a Prophet of God that came after Muhammad) or any other great religion-following figure, calling for a "holy war" against non-believers of whatever deity or non-deity they follow that instructs them in their religious text to kill non-believers? And please, use modern-day "comparison?"You might start with making a more sound comparision, say Bin Laden and Eric Rudolph.. the list goes on and on from both sides.
I'll start my comparison of what God to worship right here. It is why Billy Graham and I follow Christ Jesus the Son of God. And, where peace in the middle east will come from.
(Now, if we are to compare peace passages of our chosen religious texts that also apply to people that refuse to follow our chosen religious texts, you will see peace in the middle east. The killing in the name of any god has to stop though.)
Matthew 5
38"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
39"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
40"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
41"Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
42"Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
43"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
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a.elhusseini
- Student
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- Location: Columbus,Oh
Post #24
I meant to reply earlier but i was kinda busy..anyway its quite funny that some people tend to think negatively of something recognised universally as good(for instance sweet tasting candy), just because they have a built-in uneducated perception of right and wrong...
1John2_26 said
Remember I am not an unbeliever of Islam, I am a non-believer and will never be a follower of Islam. Not even with a saw or an AK-47 to my neck to urge my conversion to any "religion of peace."
Here you're again getting into religion, you're saying you're a non-believer but later you're saying you're a christian ! One aspect of christianity seems to contradict with another part of the bible drawing violence. The 'peaceful' texts from the bible clearly refute the later violence drawing verses. I many times ponder if people have read all the bible! Since i shouldnt talk about religion and rather peace in the middle east, ill ask you one question: have you or anyone you know read all 66 books of the bible and found that not all the stories are the same?
As i've mentioned earlier jihad was first called for in the bible...pretty sad ppl read parts of the bible and ignored other parts...
"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Chronicles 15:13)"
"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:17-18)" It's odd how one of the 10 Commandments says "Thou shalt not kill (or murder). (Exodus 20:13)", and yet, the bible ordered the killing of innocent children and non-virgin girls
1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.
Regarding The mormons i believe its extremely ridiculous how that whole religion came into being . Then again i will remind you that muslims believe in all the prophets sent forth by god to the jews and christians. Concerning Budhism i respect their beliefs but its not enough to explain every single thing in the world( our existence, our here-after life etc).Again i point you to christian 'jihads' examples are Eric Rudolph,Timothy McVeigh,Terry Nichols...
I wasnt being a pessimist when i clearly stated that peace is very improbable, both christians and muslims believe that when jesus comes back is when all the problems in the middle east will be solved including the palestinian,israeli issue.
Regarding your second post, you talk about the palestinian attacks on the jews of israel. The palestinians are resisting occupation in this case and so jihad is justified against the retaliating anger possessed occupators. Plz again read the article on jihad on Wikipedia. What im doing right now is Jihad !! Bringing about Allah/God's name is one type of jihad!
1John2_26 said
What then is your opinion of a person that would plan and carry out a murder where they are provided a bunch of explosives, form them into a piece of clothing, walk into a place full of innocent people, and then detonate that explosive killing all sorts of innocent people?
Killing innocent ppl is unjustified and i believe some ppl are mislead into believing that this is jihad, the terrorist's kidnapping of innocent ppl is NOT jihad.
1John2_26 said
And do Muslims follow the advice given to kill non-believers today? It appears from watching the news and even Al Jazeera, that they do.
What the hell are you talking about? Al Jazeera and other news networks DONT talk about killing non believers in ANY WAY that just proves you havent watched any arabic broadcasting channel.
1John2_26 said
I wwish jihad-terrorists would let Allah do the punishing and not do it themselves.
Im gonna say this straight out, F UCK YOU for saying that. jihad is not equal to terrorism.
1John2_26 said
In a Jihad, little groups of Muslims carry out the death penalty to others while following the Qur'an.
In Jihad, high levels of authority involved in the government and only with the government's consent is the Sharia carried out.Prove your damn lie!
1John2_26 said
I realize that most Muslims are not seeking to kill non-believers, but that does not change the Qur'an and this current history of Islamic violence carrying on the millenia-old violence of the sword of Allah.
O.k thats a change, debating did make u a bit more sensible not to blame all muslims and generalize, have you been reading my earlier posts about the history of the Quran and Islam?
To sum it up again if ur too fuckin lazy to read an article about Jihad, its the struggle to do good in the name of god.
1John2_26 said
The god Allah does not warn non-Muslims nor do Muslims have the right to "punish" non-believers. If he does he should do it in languages they understand and Allah should carry out the Jihad himself. I wish Allah would send the world a peaceful preacher like Billy Graham instead of yet one more would-be conqueror like Bin Laden one after the other.
again Fuck ur ignorant golf sized brain. Jihad against innocent civilians is wrong. Wat Bin Laden did was wrong. We are instructed to 'punish' the non believers who inflict harm upon muslims and insult god vainly. Allah did not send down a Billy Graham in his name. God doesnt have 3 religions, or 100 including the bogus ones every guy unanimously
bring to existence for instance church of scientology...
1John2_26 said
But again we get bonechilling Muslim reality in regards to violence towards people that refuse to ever follow Muhammad's vision
People refusing to correctly seek the word of truth are the followers of satan's path, beautifully embellished, ignorantly adopted and known as the easy way. People who heartfully seek the truth and compare all religions correctly will realize Islam is the way to be.
1John2_26 said
It is telling that if every sigle verse finds justification in today's modern world, then peace anywhere people believe this religion is not possible, let alone the middle east. I believe France and Australia are good case studies.
Every single verse finds justification regarding the story and reason y it was sent. Each verse was one of god's sent to his prophet on various occasions. I have no comment on what happened in France because i dont know much about that but about Australia its clear the Lebanese sparked the problems but they have nothing to do with Islamic violence and not to forget the Australians are racist even to their own natives- the aborginals.
P.S: if you seek more justification about a verse who may seem violent and seemingly uncomprehendable plz do not hesitate to send me back. I know ur first name is John i would like to know ur last so we could take this debate to a more friendly level.
1John2_26 said
Remember I am not an unbeliever of Islam, I am a non-believer and will never be a follower of Islam. Not even with a saw or an AK-47 to my neck to urge my conversion to any "religion of peace."
Here you're again getting into religion, you're saying you're a non-believer but later you're saying you're a christian ! One aspect of christianity seems to contradict with another part of the bible drawing violence. The 'peaceful' texts from the bible clearly refute the later violence drawing verses. I many times ponder if people have read all the bible! Since i shouldnt talk about religion and rather peace in the middle east, ill ask you one question: have you or anyone you know read all 66 books of the bible and found that not all the stories are the same?
As i've mentioned earlier jihad was first called for in the bible...pretty sad ppl read parts of the bible and ignored other parts...
"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Chronicles 15:13)"
"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:17-18)" It's odd how one of the 10 Commandments says "Thou shalt not kill (or murder). (Exodus 20:13)", and yet, the bible ordered the killing of innocent children and non-virgin girls
1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.
Regarding The mormons i believe its extremely ridiculous how that whole religion came into being . Then again i will remind you that muslims believe in all the prophets sent forth by god to the jews and christians. Concerning Budhism i respect their beliefs but its not enough to explain every single thing in the world( our existence, our here-after life etc).Again i point you to christian 'jihads' examples are Eric Rudolph,Timothy McVeigh,Terry Nichols...
I wasnt being a pessimist when i clearly stated that peace is very improbable, both christians and muslims believe that when jesus comes back is when all the problems in the middle east will be solved including the palestinian,israeli issue.
Regarding your second post, you talk about the palestinian attacks on the jews of israel. The palestinians are resisting occupation in this case and so jihad is justified against the retaliating anger possessed occupators. Plz again read the article on jihad on Wikipedia. What im doing right now is Jihad !! Bringing about Allah/God's name is one type of jihad!
1John2_26 said
What then is your opinion of a person that would plan and carry out a murder where they are provided a bunch of explosives, form them into a piece of clothing, walk into a place full of innocent people, and then detonate that explosive killing all sorts of innocent people?
Killing innocent ppl is unjustified and i believe some ppl are mislead into believing that this is jihad, the terrorist's kidnapping of innocent ppl is NOT jihad.
1John2_26 said
And do Muslims follow the advice given to kill non-believers today? It appears from watching the news and even Al Jazeera, that they do.
What the hell are you talking about? Al Jazeera and other news networks DONT talk about killing non believers in ANY WAY that just proves you havent watched any arabic broadcasting channel.
1John2_26 said
I wwish jihad-terrorists would let Allah do the punishing and not do it themselves.
Im gonna say this straight out, F UCK YOU for saying that. jihad is not equal to terrorism.
1John2_26 said
In a Jihad, little groups of Muslims carry out the death penalty to others while following the Qur'an.
In Jihad, high levels of authority involved in the government and only with the government's consent is the Sharia carried out.Prove your damn lie!
1John2_26 said
I realize that most Muslims are not seeking to kill non-believers, but that does not change the Qur'an and this current history of Islamic violence carrying on the millenia-old violence of the sword of Allah.
O.k thats a change, debating did make u a bit more sensible not to blame all muslims and generalize, have you been reading my earlier posts about the history of the Quran and Islam?
To sum it up again if ur too fuckin lazy to read an article about Jihad, its the struggle to do good in the name of god.1John2_26 said
The god Allah does not warn non-Muslims nor do Muslims have the right to "punish" non-believers. If he does he should do it in languages they understand and Allah should carry out the Jihad himself. I wish Allah would send the world a peaceful preacher like Billy Graham instead of yet one more would-be conqueror like Bin Laden one after the other.
again Fuck ur ignorant golf sized brain. Jihad against innocent civilians is wrong. Wat Bin Laden did was wrong. We are instructed to 'punish' the non believers who inflict harm upon muslims and insult god vainly. Allah did not send down a Billy Graham in his name. God doesnt have 3 religions, or 100 including the bogus ones every guy unanimously
bring to existence for instance church of scientology...
1John2_26 said
But again we get bonechilling Muslim reality in regards to violence towards people that refuse to ever follow Muhammad's vision
People refusing to correctly seek the word of truth are the followers of satan's path, beautifully embellished, ignorantly adopted and known as the easy way. People who heartfully seek the truth and compare all religions correctly will realize Islam is the way to be.
1John2_26 said
It is telling that if every sigle verse finds justification in today's modern world, then peace anywhere people believe this religion is not possible, let alone the middle east. I believe France and Australia are good case studies.
Every single verse finds justification regarding the story and reason y it was sent. Each verse was one of god's sent to his prophet on various occasions. I have no comment on what happened in France because i dont know much about that but about Australia its clear the Lebanese sparked the problems but they have nothing to do with Islamic violence and not to forget the Australians are racist even to their own natives- the aborginals.
P.S: if you seek more justification about a verse who may seem violent and seemingly uncomprehendable plz do not hesitate to send me back. I know ur first name is John i would like to know ur last so we could take this debate to a more friendly level.
Post #25
a.elhusseini wrote:I see you have noted down a number of Ayat/Verses which may seemingly appear to be gory and violent. Yet after careful examination of every verse, i came to a conclusion: 1- ur an ignorant jackass 2- ur a very ignorant jackass
My guess is that its either you carefully pulled out those verses from Quran, or you copied them off a website. Plz allow me to correct you first of all by saying that THE VERSES PICKED OUT ARE INCOMPLETE, INCORRECTLY MERGED AND ALTERED for you i have an accurate description: low-life b****rd.
This is a strong formal warning! Use of profanity and making personal attacks on forum members is against the rules.e.alhusseini wrote:Im gonna say this straight out, F*** YOU for saying that. jihad is not equal to terrorism.
. . ..
To sum it up again if ur too f***in lazy to read an article about Jihad, its the struggle to do good in the name of god.
. . . . . .
again ur ignorant golf sized brain.
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youngborean
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Post #26
I just thought that I would like to chime in here. People from every perspective on this board have seemed to run into various conflicts from time to time about people that do violent acts in the supposed name of a Religion. The assertion that a.elhusseini seems to be making is that Muslims who carry out terrorism in the name of Islam are not really muslims. This has been echoed by all groups on this board. For instance, Hitler was not a reflection of Christianity, Stalin does not represent atheism, and so on. To me it seems quite easy to pick out bad apples and blame a group for that. So I would lean to looking at a religion's best examples (rather than their worst) to judge the merits of their philosophies. With that in mind, I have a question about Islam. How does a peaceful Muslim reconcile the inferred Violence of Muhammed himself as proposed in the stories about him? I really know nothing of Muslim hermeneutics and would be curious to know how non-violence or even more simply non-terrorism is supported through the textual history of Islam.
Post #27
D C & R, should change the rule about "insults" as long as curse words are not allowed. In debates in a debate class, insults always destroy the argument of the person using anger to convey his message.
The following would be seen as an insult in Saudi Arabia and Iran and parts of Indonesia and Africa because any inference that Islam or Muhammad are wrong is punishible as a crime.
The following would be seen as an insult in Saudi Arabia and Iran and parts of Indonesia and Africa because any inference that Islam or Muhammad are wrong is punishible as a crime.
What should be done and allowed is to judge the apple by the tree!I just thought that I would like to chime in here. People from every perspective on this board have seemed to run into various conflicts from time to time about people that do violent acts in the supposed name of a Religion. The assertion that a.elhusseini seems to be making is that Muslims who carry out terrorism in the name of Islam are not really muslims. This has been echoed by all groups on this board. For instance, Hitler was not a reflection of Christianity, Stalin does not represent atheism, and so on. To me it seems quite easy to pick out bad apples and blame a group for that. So I would lean to looking at a religion's best examples (rather than their worst) to judge the merits of their philosophies. With that in mind, I have a question about Islam. How does a peaceful Muslim reconcile the inferred Violence of Muhammed himself as proposed in the stories about him? I really know nothing of Muslim hermeneutics and would be curious to know how non-violence or even more simply non-terrorism is supported through the textual history of Islam.
Post #28
An AK-47 is pretty easy to understand in any language.I meant to reply earlier but i was kinda busy..anyway its quite funny that some people tend to think negatively of something recognised universally as good(for instance sweet tasting candy), just because they have a built-in uneducated perception of right and wrong...
1John2_26 said
Remember I am not an unbeliever of Islam, I am a non-believer and will never be a follower of Islam. Not even with a saw or an AK-47 to my neck to urge my conversion to any "religion of peace."
I will never be a Muslim. I will never believe that Islam is correct. Is that better?Here you're again getting into religion, you're saying you're a non-believer but later you're saying you're a Christian !
Real history in context.One aspect of christianity seems to contradict with another part of the bible drawing violence.
I agree. The entire world would worship Christ Jesus the Son of God if that were the case.The 'peaceful' texts from the bible clearly refute the later violence drawing verses. I many times ponder if people have read all the bible!
Since i shouldnt talk about religion and rather peace in the middle east, ill ask you one question: have you or anyone you know read all 66 books of the bible and found that not all the stories are the same?
People drive cars now and not horses to kill infidels. Times change.
Pretty sad that people read the Qur'an and do not see it has errors about the Biblical history of the Israelites. Abraham attempted to sacrifice Isaac and no one else.As i've mentioned earlier jihad was first called for in the bible...pretty sad ppl read parts of the bible and ignored other parts...
Let's see what's going on here? Well it appears to ONLY apply to Israelites and not tourists and foriegn workers being Jihaded huh?"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Chronicles 15:13)"
Notice that this was an in-house (or country) decision. They did not export their religious decision to other countries!!!!2 Chronicles 15
Asa's Reform
1 The Spirit of God came upon Azariah son of Oded. 2 He went out to meet Asa and said to him, "Listen to me, Asa and all Judah and Benjamin. The LORD is with you when you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you. 3 For a long time Israel was without the true God, without a priest to teach and without the law.
4 But in their distress they turned to the LORD, the God of Israel, and sought him, and he was found by them.
5 In those days it was not safe to travel about, for all the inhabitants of the lands were in great turmoil.
6 One nation was being crushed by another and one city by another, because God was troubling them with every kind of distress. 7 But as for you, be strong and do not give up, for your work will be rewarded."
8 When Asa heard these words and the prophecy of Azariah son of Oded the prophet, he took courage. He removed the detestable idols from the whole land of Judah and Benjamin and from the towns he had captured in the hills of Ephraim. He repaired the altar of the LORD that was in front of the portico of the LORD's temple.
9 Then he assembled all Judah and Benjamin and the people from Ephraim, Manasseh and Simeon who had settled among them, for large numbers had come over to him from Israel when they saw that the LORD his God was with him.
10 They assembled at Jerusalem in the third month of the fifteenth year of Asa's reign. 11 At that time they sacrificed to the LORD seven hundred head of cattle and seven thousand sheep and goats from the plunder they had brought back.
12 They entered into a covenant to seek the LORD, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul. 13 All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman. 14 They took an oath to the LORD with loud acclamation, with shouting and with trumpets and horns. 15 All Judah rejoiced about the oath because they had sworn it wholeheartedly. They sought God eagerly, and he was found by them. So the LORD gave them rest on every side.
16 King Asa also deposed his grandmother Maacah from her position as queen mother, because she had made a repulsive Asherah pole. Asa cut the pole down, broke it up and burned it in the Kidron Valley. 17 Although he did not remove the high places from Israel, Asa's heart was fully committed to the LORD all his life. 18 He brought into the temple of God the silver and gold and the articles that he and his father had dedicated.
19 There was no more war until the thirty-fifth year of Asa's reign.
Interesting that both the warriors and Moses did not want to kill everyone but spared so many. You would think that by now the "Prophet of God" would have been a hero of a new world religion!"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:17-1" It's odd how one of the 10 Commandments says "Thou shalt not kill (or murder).
Ruthless judgement of God on a wicked people. Israel's God. I still would have edited this part out if I was a new Prophet, to make myself and my new deity look oh so good.(Exodus 20:13)", and yet, the bible ordered the killing of innocent children and non-virgin girls.
1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.
We are discussing fact or fantasy? Israel still has enemies poised to kill her. And who would that enemy be?
You mean that an Angel from God would tell a Prophet wrong things about the Bible? Sounds very familiar.Regarding The mormons i believe its extremely ridiculous how that whole religion came into being.
Christianty did not endorse MC Veigh not even one Christian denomination. Nice try. Nor will it ever spread Christ by beheadings.Then again I will remind you that muslims believe in all the prophets sent forth by god to the Jews and Christians. Concerning Budhism i respect their beliefs but its not enough to explain every single thing in the world( our existence, our here-after life etc).Again i point you to Christian 'jihads' examples are Eric Rudolph,Timothy McVeigh,Terry Nichols...
I wasnt being a pessimist when i clearly stated that peace is very improbable, both christians and muslims believe that when jesus comes back is when all the problems in the middle east will be solved including the palestinian,israeli issue.
Jesus as God. Big difference between Isa and Jesus.
Regarding your second post, you talk about the palestinian attacks on the jews of israel. The palestinians are resisting occupation in this case and so jihad is justified against the retaliating anger possessed occupators. Plz again read the article on jihad on Wikipedia. What im doing right now is Jihad !! Bringing about Allah/God's name is one type of jihad!
And what I am doing is saying that allah is a false god, Muhammad was no prophet or was the prophet of a false god. And that would carry the death penalty for me under Islamic law. Jihad is death. Anything and everything that does not submit to Islam is seen as something to be fought. History cannot lie about Jihad and Islam.
Part two next post:
Post #29
Part two continued:
Infidels have always been infidels. You either submit and become a Muslim or else!
I believe people are misled by Islam. But not Jihad.
There is a breath of fresh air. I'm glad I was just dreaming about suicide bombers hailed as heros on Al Jezeera and in Muslim countries opposed to Israel's existense.
It does on planet Earth. Maybe it doesn't on Mormonism's god on his planet near the star Kolob or in Islamic heaven but it sure does on Earth.
Jiahd is war on unbelievers. It would be better to todays Islam if it were presented more matter of fact. Cuz we can all see what it means.
Scientolgists don't strap bombs on themselves to fight for their religion. They use books and seminars. Learn something from them. They are wrong about God but so what? We will both live long lives with them around!
And here comes more bone chilling:
Or be beheaded, or subjugated under Sharia law. Satan seems alive and well in Islamic coiuntries under Shgaria law. Also it is far easier o be forced to believe a religionj or die than it is to seek God peacefully in your own way. Atheists are far closer to God then suicide bombers, mad Imams, and lying TV evangelists. Religion is useed by Satan far more than anything else. Look at the numbers.
So Muslims can kill them? Is that always the history that follows Islam? Let me check my history book. while watching todays news . . yup!
*My name is not John (1John 2_26 is advice given to me by John) and if God calls me to be a martyr, then I will go into Islamic countries and preach the Gospel, UNARMED, of the God I worship, Christ Jesus.
Maybe we could talk before my execution.
(May God forgive me for this analogy, but the suffering of peaceful Christians is real. The Persecuted Church is for the Glory of those yet to be called.)
1John2_26 said
What then is your opinion of a person that would plan and carry out a murder where they are provided a bunch of explosives, form them into a piece of clothing, walk into a place full of innocent people, and then detonate that explosive killing all sorts of innocent people?
Infidels have always been infidels. You either submit and become a Muslim or else!
Killing innocent ppl is unjustified and i believe some ppl are mislead into believing that this is jihad, the terrorist's kidnapping of innocent ppl is NOT jihad.
I believe people are misled by Islam. But not Jihad.
1John2_26 said
And do Muslims follow the advice given to kill non-believers today? It appears from watching the news and even Al Jazeera, that they do.
What the hell are you talking about? Al Jazeera and other news networks DONT talk about killing non believers in ANY WAY that just proves you havent watched any arabic broadcasting channel.
There is a breath of fresh air. I'm glad I was just dreaming about suicide bombers hailed as heros on Al Jezeera and in Muslim countries opposed to Israel's existense.
1John2_26 said
I wwish jihad-terrorists would let Allah do the punishing and not do it themselves.
Im gonna say this straight out, F UCK YOU for saying that. jihad is not equal to terrorism.
It does on planet Earth. Maybe it doesn't on Mormonism's god on his planet near the star Kolob or in Islamic heaven but it sure does on Earth.
The blessing of murdering non-Muslims comes from Saudi Arabia and Iran and Syria. Yes from Islamic countries and high levels of authority. My point proven.1John2_26 said
In a Jihad, little groups of Muslims carry out the death penalty to others while following the Qur'an.
In Jihad, high levels of authority involved in the government and only with the government's consent is the Sharia carried out.Prove your damn lie!
1John2_26 said
I realize that most Muslims are not seeking to kill non-believers, but that does not change the Qur'an and this current history of Islamic violence carrying on the millenia-old violence of the sword of Allah.
O.k thats a change, debating did make u a bit more sensible not to blame all muslims and generalize, have you been reading my earlier posts about the history of the Quran and Islam?
To sum it up again if ur too fuckin lazy to read an article about Jihad, its the struggle to do good in the name of god.
Jiahd is war on unbelievers. It would be better to todays Islam if it were presented more matter of fact. Cuz we can all see what it means.
1John2_26 said
The god Allah does not warn non-Muslims nor do Muslims have the right to "punish" non-believers. If he does he should do it in languages they understand and Allah should carry out the Jihad himself. I wish Allah would send the world a peaceful preacher like Billy Graham instead of yet one more would-be conqueror like Bin Laden one after the other.
Golf is played on a huge course.again ur ignorant golf sized brain.
Which would prove my point that Jihad is murder in the name of Allah. Everyone that refuses to submit to Islam is vainly attacking Islam. Simple truth.Jihad against innocent civilians is wrong. Wat Bin Laden did was wrong. We are instructed to 'punish' the non believers who inflict harm upon muslims and insult god vainly.
An absolute fact.Allah did not send down a Billy Graham in his name.
No, God has delivered His message through the Israelites. Their God we Christians follow.God doesnt have 3 religions, or 100 including the bogus ones every guy unanimously
bring to existence for instance church of scientology...
Scientolgists don't strap bombs on themselves to fight for their religion. They use books and seminars. Learn something from them. They are wrong about God but so what? We will both live long lives with them around!
1John2_26 said
But again we get bonechilling Muslim reality in regards to violence towards people that refuse to ever follow Muhammad's vision
And here comes more bone chilling:
People refusing to correctly seek the word of truth are the followers of satan's path, beautifully embellished, ignorantly adopted and known as the easy way. People who heartfully seek the truth and compare all religions correctly will realize Islam is the way to be.
Or be beheaded, or subjugated under Sharia law. Satan seems alive and well in Islamic coiuntries under Shgaria law. Also it is far easier o be forced to believe a religionj or die than it is to seek God peacefully in your own way. Atheists are far closer to God then suicide bombers, mad Imams, and lying TV evangelists. Religion is useed by Satan far more than anything else. Look at the numbers.
1John2_26 said
It is telling that if every sigle verse finds justification in today's modern world, then peace anywhere people believe this religion is not possible, let alone the middle east. I believe France and Australia are good case studies.
Every single verse finds justification regarding the story and reason y it was sent. Each verse was one of god's sent to his prophet on various occasions. I have no comment on what happened in France because i dont know much about that but about Australia its clear the Lebanese sparked the problems but they have nothing to do with Islamic violence and not to forget the Australians are racist even to their own natives- the aborginals.
So Muslims can kill them? Is that always the history that follows Islam? Let me check my history book. while watching todays news . . yup!
What is uncomprehensible to me is that Islam is called by anyone; "the religion of peace." Yes it clearly is that if only Muslims are allowed to live on earth . . . and yet, even that hasn't brought peace to Islamic countries.P.S: if you seek more justification about a verse who may seem violent and seemingly uncomprehendable plz do not hesitate to send me back. I know ur first name is John i would like to know ur last so we could take this debate to a more friendly level.
*My name is not John (1John 2_26 is advice given to me by John) and if God calls me to be a martyr, then I will go into Islamic countries and preach the Gospel, UNARMED, of the God I worship, Christ Jesus.
Maybe we could talk before my execution.
(May God forgive me for this analogy, but the suffering of peaceful Christians is real. The Persecuted Church is for the Glory of those yet to be called.)
Post #30
Scientolgists don't strap bombs on themselves to fight for their religion. They use books and seminars. Learn something from them. They are wrong about God but so what? We will both live long lives with them around!
Excuse me for diverting the topic, but you are very wrong. Scientology is an evil cult. The methods of brainwashing used are extremist. They are also very criminal and inhumane, to such an extent they even have gulags.
www.xenu.net
What is uncomprehensible to me is that Islam is called by anyone; "the religion of peace." Yes it clearly is that if only Muslims are allowed to live on earth . . . and yet, even that hasn't brought peace to Islamic countries.
Ridiculously hypocritical. See America.
