Baptist Church Excludes Democrats

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perfessor
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Baptist Church Excludes Democrats

Post #1

Post by perfessor »

http://www.wlos.com/

I don't get it. Didn't Jesus ply his trade among tax collectors, prostitutes, and other "sinners"?
East Waynesville Baptist asked nine members to leave. Now 40 more have left the church in protest. Former members say Pastor Chan Chandler gave them the ultimatum, saying if they didn't support George Bush, they should resign or repent. The minister declined an interview with News 13. But he did say "the actions were not politically motivated." There are questions about whether the bi-laws were followed when the members were thrown out.
So my question for debate: Should the East Waynesville Baptist Church lose its tax-exempt status?

I say they should, since the pastor has turned the church into an arm of the Republican party.
"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."

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Post #111

Post by micatala »

Hmmm.

Looking over your list, Al, I don't find one single example of anything Christian being outlawed, let alone the particular example ENIGMA asked for.

To be outlawed means for it to be illegal to do AT ALL.

Lots of people in my town put up nativity scenes outside. We have one in our home on top of the piano every Christmas.

You like to say what the ACLU would do in various circumstances. No facts here, only assumptions.


There is no separation of church and state in the Constitution. Hanging the Ten Commandments on the wall of a city building does not a temple make.
There is an amendment prohibiting the 'establishment of religion.' Obviously you have a different interpretation of the implications of this than many others do.

The fact that current legal interpretations do not allow for the display of the ten commandments and other religious displays by government entities and in certain circumstances is not in any way an outlawing of Christianity, or even of these particular practices by private citizens. Your logic is flawed here.
Modern Hate Crime legislation by definition silences one religion only. It illegalizes Christianity.
C'mon. THis is complete rubbish. If Christianity is illegal, then why are there 27 Christian churches in my town of under 15,000.

I heard Dr James Kennedy preach an anti-homosexual sermon just the other day on TV. According to your statement, he must be in jail now. Is he?
Sorry to throw fact water on your sarcasmo laugh-parade.
What facts? Most of what you wrote is demonstrably not factual, although there may have been one or to in there somewhere. Hmmm.

Christians did help free slaves, YES.

Abe Lincoln was a Christian, YES, and perhaps I will read his second inaugural if I have time soon.

Didn't see any other demonstrated facts.

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Post #112

Post by steen »

AlAyeti wrote:Insult and sarcasm directed at "me" in a personal way. Hmm.
Your sarcasm denotes a weak wit.
Though I find it laughable coming literally from a monkey.
Hmm, my initial reading of this is that you are grossly violating TOS here.
Why do we have to banter when it is Christians time and time again that are outlawed coast to coast.
Outlawed? Funny, I went to Church today and didn't have to hide my face from the FBI cameras. Guess you were wrong in that claim.
The Boy Scouts not wanting homosexuals to be off far away in the mountains with "Questioning Youth" is attacked because they are "perceived" as Christian.
Actually, they also threw out a couple of leaders for not being Christian. That, of course, violated many different ordinances against religious discrimination. Yes, the Boy Scouts can be as much bigots as they want to be. They then just can't function as a publically supported group in communities that have rules against discrimination. The boy scouts can do anything they want, but can't be publically supported while they do so. You of course, are saying that this is wrong. That bigots should have public support, even as they discriminate. Not unlike the KKK insisting on public support. Are you saying that bigots have a RIGHT to public support? When you bring up the Boy Scouts, that sure seems to be what you were saying. Or were you merely confused and unaware of the facts?
We need to debate that? If they were Jews, Muslims or Sikh's, the ACLU would be no where to be found.
Given that ACLU has defended Christians' rights as well, your claim does seem initially to be dishonest. Just want to clarify. Are you saying that the ACLU is anti-Christian? Because if so you clearly is making a false claim. So please clarify.
Try teaching anything but Darwinistic Evolution in our schools and see if the law will not be used to silence the blashphemer!
Well, if I wanted to teach the Lakota Creation muth about the turtle, would that be an appropriate use of science class? Or were you trying to say something else? Your unsubstantiated one-liner all blended together is not really that clear and informative; rather it almost seems like a rant and a rather incoherent and ignorant one at that. So I hope you will dissuade us of that impression and actually clarify what you mean here.
The Ten Commandments "Litigated" and ousted is an attack on only the Christians by a judge passing a law, or, better yet making one up to discriminate against only Christians.
Rather, it is a Christian attempt at displaying public support for our religion only. And THAT clearly is illegal in the US Constitution.
There is no separation of church and state in the Constitution. Hanging the Ten Commandments on the wall of a city building does not a temple make.
But it is a public display of only one religion, ignoring all others. That's the same as promoting one religious belief over all others, and THAT is illegal in the US Constitution. Didn't you know that? So if you want to hang the basic laws/life isntructions of all religions on a wall together, all with the same prominence, then you are actually allowed to do so.

Would you want that?
Where does it say that the teachings of Krishna cannot hang on a court house wall?

Who are you kidding sarcasmo? The ACLU and the Democrats would fight tooth and nail for that.
Again, where is your evidence that the ACLU, which upholds the US Constitution (sidenote, I am wondering why you hate the constitution so much? Could it be that it doesn't allow a Christian theocracy?) would suddenly support unconstitutional actions? Again, on the surface, your claim seems absurd and just plain false so could you again dissuade us of that impression, please?
It is OK to teach children about giving h--d the proper way in school but teaching them abstinence is "religious dogma!"
Hmm, as far as I can see, you are referring to the Henry Waxman report that documented that 17 of 19 "abstinence-only" sex-ed programs outright lied to kids in numerous areas. So I take it that you are in favor of lying to kids, right?
Whose religion? The Christians.
What about it?
The Nativity? Christian. Out "lawed" in many towns and schools
Again, it is the endorsement of only one religious teaching, excluding al others. It seems that your complaint is that Christianity is not allowed to be presented alone. Well, obviously that would be illegal per the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution, so as best I can read your posts, you are lamenting that illegal activities are not allowed. Why is it you are praising law breaking and illegal acts?
while Halloween is rejoiced over.
Let me see, what religion is celebrating kids dressing up in costumes and collecting candy from neighbors?
Modern Hate Crime definition silences one religion only.
That again seems a false claim. Do you have evidence? Or is this the one where Christians of Phelp's type are upset that beating up a kid and leaving him to die tied to a barbwire fence is seen as hateful? Ah, yes. I can't understand or accept your lament, but you have the right to hold it.
It illegalizes Christianity.
So your Church got confiscated by the government? Or did your excitement result in a touch of hyperbole there?
You cannot support sexual perversion as a civil right
"perversion"? Really? By whose claim?
and then say that those that denigrate and dsicriminate ahgainst sexual perversion and those that willingly practice it is allowed and allowable.
Could you rewrite this so it makes sense, please? It kind of reads as you lamenting not being able to discriminate, not being able to push bigotry?
Black-White male-female unions can find empirical scientific proof for the coupling being "natural."
Really?
Homosexuality finds every branch of physical science squarely in opposition. Genitalia denotes sexual orientation.
Funny that you should bring up the "natural" argument. Surely you know that homosexual activity has been well-documented in the animal world? So your claim, just based on scientific facts, is clearly false. Plain and simple, YOU ARE WRONG.

Perhaps you should research such things before making absolutist claims so that your credibility won't suffer?
African-American are furious that sexual perversoin is given equal definition to slaves, and non-human status.
Really? because you say so?
That, by the way, Darwin, (evolution) and his disciples truly believed.
You seem so certain of this. Can you actually provide evidence for this? because certainly nothing in Darwin's writings justifies your accusation. You are not making a false claim, are you?
Same-sex sex, is nonsense in perfect definition of non sense.
Ah, another fundamentalist "because I say so" postulation. Yeah, I love how you proved your claim... NOT!
Slavery and race discrimination is provably wrong.
And yet, both are PROMINENTLY in the Bible. So you are saying that the Bible is wrong, aren't you?
While you are evolving into a higher chimp or whatever non- knuckledragger
Huh? You seem deficient in your understanding of Evolution. Individuals don't evolve, populations do.
you look forward to your offspring being, sperm and ovum will get you progeny there. Unless you're "a" homosexual. Then, offspring wouldn't enter your oriented mind.
As is true in childless couples and those using some form of contraception. Are you suggesting that they are wrong also?
Sorry to throw fact water on your sarcasmo laugh-parade.
Really? Where? I must have missed the "facts." What were they?

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Post #113

Post by steen »

AlAyeti wrote:Oh,

yeah.

I listed what Democrats and Republicans do.

Facts.
One-sided misrepresentation, rather. No need to be dishonest about it.

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Post #114

Post by AlAyeti »

I was not born a Christian. I did not live most of my life "like a Christian."

Why do you pretend there is not an concerted effort agianst Christianity in particular with the laws passed to silence its voice?

We know that Christians are murdered and imprisoned world wide and that new hate crimes bills in America are pointed squarely at Christians.

"Within my own lifetime, I have seen the most ferocious assaults on Christian faith and morals; first on the part of the intellectual community, and then on the part of the government…the federal government has not even tried to conceal its hostility to religion." (Senator Jesse Helms)"

"Bill Clinton says the middle-class folks in Topeka who contribute to The 700 Club or Focus on the Family are radicals whose beliefs pose a mortal danger to this nation!" (p. 12. Who's Afraid of the Religious Right? Don Feder. 1996.)

Though Jesse Helms is not my kind of politician, there is foundation for his statement to be said in the halls of lawmakers.

Bill Clinton? Enough said.

Why not just agree with the clear evidence.

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Post #115

Post by steen »

AlAyeti wrote:I was not born a Christian. I did not live most of my life "like a Christian."

Why do you pretend there is not an concerted effort agianst Christianity in particular with the laws passed to silence its voice?
Because no such laws have been passed. Laws are passed to prevent one religion from imposing itself on society uniquely. Perhaps you consider that discrimination. You are free to believe so.
We know that Christians are murdered and imprisoned world wide
As are people of all other religions as well.
and that new hate crimes bills in America are pointed squarely at Christians.
They are pointed squarely at those who commit hate crimes. Are you saying that Christians are committing more hatecrimes than others? Do you have to insult my religion so? While Christinas have been pushing their share of bigotry, discrimination and hate crimes, they are not the exclusive perpetrators. I would like for you to retract that accusation.
"Within my own lifetime, I have seen the most ferocious assaults on Christian faith and morals; first on the part of the intellectual community, and then on the part of the government…the federal government has not even tried to conceal its hostility to religion." (Senator Jesse Helms)"
Yes, Helms does believe that actually enforcing the 1st Amendment, not discriminating against other religions, that this is a horrible injustice. After all, Helms "know" that he is right and all others are wrong, and as such, his religious views simply should be adopted regardless of whether people agree or not. It is a personal affront to him that some resist having his religious views imposed on them. Hence, Helms sees that as an assault on his "right" to push his beliefs on everybody else. Helms' claim is the typical excuse of the narcissistic bigot.
"Bill Clinton says the middle-class folks in Topeka who contribute to The 700 Club or Focus on the Family are radicals whose beliefs pose a mortal danger to this nation!" (p. 12. Who's Afraid of the Religious Right? Don Feder. 1996.)
As the 700-club indeed is radical in pushing its moral view onto everybody else, Clinton was right on. It is extremists like that which have given us the anti-abortion terrorists, Phelps and the radicalizing of republican politics to be flirting dangerously close to fascism.
Though Jesse Helms is not my kind of politician, there is foundation for his statement to be said in the halls of lawmakers.
The foundation of a disgruntled bigot upset that he doesn't get to control others lives.
Bill Clinton? Enough said.
Really? How so?
Why not just agree with the clear evidence.
I do agree with the clear evidence of the radicalizing of the far right Christians into fascism. As you said, the evidence is clear.

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Post #116

Post by AlAyeti »

"While Christinas have been pushing their share of bigotry, discrimination and hate crimes, they are not the exclusive perpetrators."

As I asserted.

Believing in the Gospel and the New Testament to you, and so many others, like the ACLU, is intolerable.

Why would I retract a statement that finds foiundation in your view?

Christians must shut up. . . Exactly what was done to Jesus and his followers. "There is nothing new under the sun."

We both know that current "Hate Crimes Legislation," is agenda-laden and directly anti-Christian.

The enemies of God won't tolerate Christian cultural and political action. There simply isn't enough room in their pluralism for faithful followers of the Lord Jesus Christ." (p. 119. Rebuilding the Walls. Peter Waldron. 1987.)

"We will subject Orthodox Jews and Christians to the most sustained hatred and vilification in recent memory…You have neither the faith nor the strength to fight us, so you might as well surrender now." (Gay activist Steve Warren writing in The Advocate. 1987.)

"Many will say to me Lord, Lord. . . But I will say I never knew you."

Seems rabbi's know tyranny and those who dwell among it all too well. . .

"Those of us who venerate freedom, be we Jewish or Christian, be we religious or secularized, have no option but to pray for the health of Christianity in America. No other group possess both the faith and the numbers sufficient to hold back the ever-encroaching, sometimes sinister, power of the state." (Rabbi Lapin. Ameica's Real War. p. 246)

Sometimes sinister? The rabbi was a little shortsighted I feel.

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Post #117

Post by AlAyeti »

For the record.

The ACLU is anti-Christian and anti-Christians.

You cannot dwell both in the dark and the light. The ACLU is dark indeed.

What gives them the right to interpret the Constitution the way they demand it to be?

Any Christian using the ACLU to defend them are not intelligent nor are they sound in doctrine.

Their yoke cannot be shared by or with the followers of Jesus Christ.

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Post #118

Post by ENIGMA »

AlAyeti:

You have asserted much, yet demonstrated profoundly little.

When I ask for either a law or a case ruling:
AlAyeti wrote:Democrats want to trake money from good and honest people and fund degenerate behavior WHILE outlawing churches from helping the poor and needy.

C'mon man, that is a fact.

Me: Really? Ok I call put up or shut up.

Name one law or one case ruling that makes it illegal for churches to help the poor. Heck, the Quaker meeting I went to as a kid did plenty to help the poor, yet I never saw a cease and desist notice.

Please be honest and either present a direct reference to a law or case ruling or publically admit that you were incorrect on this issue. Do try to save some face at least.
I have thus far recieved no response from you, after several rounds of posting and a repost.

If you were the "empiricist" you claimed to be this question should be profoundly easy to answer with a reference to a law or case ruling. If you were intellectually honest then this question should also be easy to answer, since either you know it or you don't.

I do not insult you beyond pointing out that which is readily obvious from your posts on this thread as well as your posts in general.

Somehow I think I have a good idea what would happen if I were to make a similar request on the bulk of your points.

Don't tempt me.
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Post #119

Post by steen »

AlAyeti wrote:"While Christinas have been pushing their share of bigotry, discrimination and hate crimes, they are not the exclusive perpetrators."

As I asserted.

Believing in the Gospel and the New Testament to you, and so many others, like the ACLU, is intolerable.
And by your assertion, you are telling a lie. You are making false accusations against me.
Why would I retract a statement that finds foiundation in your view?
because you are lying. But perhaps the bearing of false witness doesn't bother you?
Christians must shut up. . . Exactly what was done to Jesus and his followers. "There is nothing new under the sun."
Another lie.
We both know that current "Hate Crimes Legislation," is agenda-laden and directly anti-Christian.
Not at all. But I again observe that you seem to believe that those who perpetrate hate-crimes are christians. Once again, I ask you not to insult Christianity such.
The enemies of God won't tolerate Christian cultural and political action. There simply isn't enough room in their pluralism for faithful followers of the Lord Jesus Christ." (p. 119. Rebuilding the Walls. Peter Waldron. 1987.)
Irrelevant as this is not based on enemies of Christianity.
"We will subject Orthodox Jews and Christians to the most sustained hatred and vilification in recent memory…You have neither the faith nor the strength to fight us, so you might as well surrender now." (Gay activist Steve Warren writing in The Advocate. 1987.)
Irrelevant. For that, I could quote Phelps as well to counteract your claim. So? I don't see this statement as law; perhaps you do?
"Many will say to me Lord, Lord. . . But I will say I never knew you."
Seems rabbi's know tyranny and those who dwell among it all too well. . .
Yadda, yadda. Do you have anything pertinent to the topic?
"Those of us who venerate freedom, be we Jewish or Christian, be we religious or secularized, have no option but to pray for the health of Christianity in America. No other group possess both the faith and the numbers sufficient to hold back the ever-encroaching, sometimes sinister, power of the state." (Rabbi Lapin. Ameica's Real War. p. 246)
And how wrong he was, as the conservative Christians now are trying to BECOME the state, to push a conservative theocracy.
Sometimes sinister? The rabbi was a little shortsighted I feel.
Indeed, as he now will note that conservative theocrats are the greatest push FOR the all-powerful state of moral self-righteousness.

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Post #120

Post by steen »

AlAyeti wrote:For the record.
The ACLU is anti-Christian and anti-Christians.
For the record, your claim is false. You are bearing false witness.
You cannot dwell both in the dark and the light. The ACLU is dark indeed.
The ACLU is defending the US Constitution. Your dislike of the very foundation of our legal system is duly noted; your attack on what defines us as Americans is noted.
What gives them the right to interpret the Constitution the way they demand it to be?
They are defending what the US Constitution actually says, rather than what theocratic conservatives want to push it to mean. They are the defenders of our freedom from fundamentalist fascist oppression and hate mongering.
Any Christian using the ACLU to defend them are not intelligent nor are they sound in doctrine.
So once again are you bearing false witness. Why is that?

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