Does God Change Our Hearts, or Do We?

Icarus · Post by **Icarus** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:44 am

Essentially this question I think comes down to Free Will vs. Determism.

Does God change our hearts or do we?

I am of the opinion that God does not either predetermined or by force himself on anyone. I believe God pokes, prods, guides, talks to, reveals, etc... a person and THAT person makes the choice to follow God and allow God into their heart.

If it is God who changes our hearts then we all have been forced to do something beyond our will and are mere forced slave type servants. As opposed to willfully submitting our lives for service.

I believe the Bible says and implies that Salvation is different than the choice to be saved. Repentance and its root words essentially say that the word means to change your mind. To change your thinking. Salvation is a benefit of that, not an enabling event into heaven. Much like choosing to swim to a life boat. The life boat is the salvation, but you decided to swim to it.

Other views?

chrispalasz · Post by **chrispalasz** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:43 am

Icarus wrote: Essentially this question I think comes down to Free Will vs. Determism.

Does God change our hearts or do we?

I am of the opinion that God does not either predetermined or by force himself on anyone. I believe God pokes, prods, guides, talks to, reveals, etc... a person and THAT person makes the choice to follow God and allow God into their heart.

If it is God who changes our hearts then we all have been forced to do something beyond our will and are mere forced slave type servants. As opposed to willfully submitting our lives for service.

I believe the Bible says and implies that Salvation is different than the choice to be saved. Repentance and its root words essentially say that the word means to change your mind. To change your thinking. Salvation is a benefit of that, not an enabling event into heaven. Much like choosing to swim to a life boat. The life boat is the salvation, but you decided to swim to it.

Other views?

Yes, this is a popular question. Well, my view is that I fully believe God is Sovereign and that we do not choose Him but He chooses us. By this concept of Free Will, if we do choose God... how does that not constitute as some people deserving to be saved and others not (which is not Biblical) or people saving themselves (by means of their choice)?

I have prayed about this issue a lot and I've read about it a lot. From reading God's Word... I've concluded that there really is no Biblical basis for the concept of Free Will as we know it (except in the Catholic Bible where the Book of Sirach mentions Free Will). In contrast, the entire Bible speaks of God's Sovereignty, His elect, His pre-chosen children (predestined), His hardening the hearts of men, and His initiation in our lives rather than our initiation with is. I do beleive that we choose God... and I do believe we initiate with God... but only after God has done them first.

As a note: I hope nobody that believes in Free Will is offended by what I say. I have no qurral with you at all. There are many doctrines that, if we fully grasped we would most certainly be drawn closer to God - but many of those same doctrines I know (this being one of them) are not necessary for salvation.

Finally, I have a question for Free Will advocates.
First, two assertions.

1. God is the Creator of Everything.
2. God is Omniscient (He knows everything past present and future)

If you do not agree with one or both of these two assertions, then stop here and let's talk about that disagreement. If we agree, please continue on to my question:

If God is the Creator of Everything and He knows Everything... how is that not the same as God's Absolute Sovereignty in predestination? He purposely created everything for a reason.

I just don't see how this fits in with Free Will. I certainly don't believe that God takes risks or that He could be surprised. This being the case, where is Free Will?

If God Creates something knowing it's path, then effectively hasn't He simply put a train on its track? And where else can a train go but on its track?

If we want to redefine Free Will as the idea that we do not know what God knows and so we have the freedom to choose everything in our lives, then I can agree with that. But please note: the reason is ONLY because we do not have the knowledge that God does and not because we actually do have Free Will.

Icarus · Post by **Icarus** » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:54 pm

Hey kids.
I'm still here.
Very busy.
Will post to JP and GL311 when I can.

Mattu · Post by **Mattu** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:12 am

We choose to become closer to God, out of His love for us. We then ask Him to enter our hearts and we are born again to from that day on strive to be like Him.

Ultimatly, we ask God to help change our hearts, He sees we are sincere, and does. It's twofold I suppose, not just one way or the other. A joint effort if you will.

chrispalasz · Post by **chrispalasz** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:12 pm

Mattu:

We choose to become closer to God, out of His love for us. We then ask Him to enter our hearts and we are born again to from that day on strive to be like Him.

Ultimatly, we ask God to help change our hearts, He sees we are sincere, and does. It's twofold I suppose, not just one way or the other. A joint effort if you will.

Well, obviously I don't agree. But that doesn't matter, and of course I respect your understanding of this issue.

When I break down what you are saying, I see three things. Please correct me if I'm wrong. You are saying that the following occurrances take place in the order that I have listed them:

1. We ask God to change our hearts
2. God sees that we are sincere
3. God changes our hearts

I definately do not want to dispute these three Biblical concepts... but I would like to dispute the order of these three Biblical concepts. From the way I understand it, the Bible presents these three facts in the following order (which I believe supports my view):

1. God changes our hearts
2. We ask God to change our hearts
3. God sees that we are sincere

I believe that the Bible supports God taking the first step and not us. Would you please offer a few passages in the Bible (don't go off the wall with passages, just one or two examples will be fine) that support the order of operations as you have listed them? Thanks!!!

Mattu · Post by **Mattu** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:20 pm

Well, to be perfectly honest, you or I could be right. Personally, I don't claim to know which way is right or wrong. I'm open to both ways, and your way actually sounds more right to me. God is the ultimate choice in what we do or not, so I would think he makes the first also.

Icarus · Post by **Icarus** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:03 pm

If you all are still watching this thread, here is something to ponder:

To whom do you witness too for conversion?

A) God.
B) A person.

Deqsan · Post by **Deqsan** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:10 pm

The starting point here is God Himself, is He sovereign? Can anything happen outside of His will? If things can happen outside of His will, He isn't sovereign! A man choosing or not choosing to believe is on the surface an act outside of God's control! This cannot be, for God is sovereign otherwise He ceases to be God!
Now lets look at man and his will, it is free, but, the fallen nature of man imprisons him so that he can only choose to do evil, yes even our 'good works are as filthy rags' says Isaiah. So God in His infinite mercy and love makes a way of salvation, by His Spirit He reveals this salvation to whom He wills. The recipients of this revelation of mercy and grace (Grace: the unmerited favour of God) 'see the light' it's the Lord's work. None of us deserve anything other than God's judgement. I am a Christian, but I cannot even boast in 'choosing' God, because even the faith I have is the gift of God, Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah).
TULIP the acronym of reformed faith,
T Total depravity of man, (Man is incapable of doing 'good' by God's standard)
U Unconditional election, (God has chosen, not based on anything we have or will do, it's His own choosing)
L Limited atonement, (Not that the redemptive work of Christ is limited, it is complete, but God has chosen, it's His sovereign will, as to who will be saved, if anyone ends up in Hell who Christ died for, then Christ would have failed)
I Irresistible grace, (Once revealed, man can only believe)
P Perserverance of the saints (He who has started the good work in His people, will finish it).

Icarus · Post by **Icarus** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:58 pm

Deqsan,
Human Free Will is not the Antithesis of Sovereignty.

Autonomy is the antithesis of sovereignty. You might be confusing the two.

This is a contradiction:

Now lets look at man and his will, it is free, but, the fallen nature of man imprisons him so that he can only choose to do evil

According to the TULIP description, God is the author of sin. Because He would be the one who creates such creatures that are determined to sin based on his encoding (creating) them.

This is also a contradiction:

Irresistible grace...

Thanks for posting, I was hoping someone would revive the question.

Deqsan · Post by **Deqsan** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:33 pm

What I have tried to express here, is, that due to the fallen nature of man, (after the fall from being created in the perfect image of God in Eden, man became a slave to his fallen will) Man can only do that which is displeasing to God, he is at war with God, the sovereignty of God is that He and He alone is the author of salvation and not determined by mans 'choosing', free will of man is therefore restricted by his nature, that he is free to choose between good and evil, but will only choose evil. If I have understood your view of a contradiction, it would seem to focus on the word 'free', (I have a driving licence, I am 'free' to drive anywhere in the UK, but there are regulations and restrictions, so I am 'not free' to drive anywhere in the UK).

Irresistible Grace, Grace: the unmerited favour of God, Gods unmerited favour to undeserving sinners, the same sinners, who, due to their fallen natures are incapable/unwilling to accept Gods grace, are drawn irresistibly to it by the working of the Holy Spirit, He creates a new person, a new creation in Christ, not perfect because the old nature is still present, Paul writes of the 'old man'. There doesn't appear to be a contradiction here as it's Gods work.

I trust I have understood your queries regarding my last post and that I have addressed them.

Icarus · Post by **Icarus** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:52 pm

Deqsan,
I'd like to show a different tact here.

Think of it as this (your boasting comment from the TULIP post inspired this thought):

If Richard Branson walked up to me and said "Mr. Icarus, I'd like to give you a million dollars with no strings attached..." and I accept, there is no [boasting] or emphasis on my accepting that free undeserved money than there is in the space between the letters in this sentence.