Israel at War with Hamas October 7, 2023

[Diogenes]

There is no question this was a horrific attack by Hamas on Israel that also endangers Palestinians.
To what extent are attacks like this inevitable, considering the history of Israel?

Isn't this just another example of how religious conflict breeds violence?
or
Is it inevitable that strongly held beliefs will always ignite the passions of some?

Perhaps the difference with religions that claim authority from God is that they inspire absolute beliefs, an absolute conviction they are 'right' and therefore anything is justifiable... including following God's orders to kill your own son.

Palestinian land stolen in 1948, more in 1967, then more every day in the West Bank makes acts of terrorism inevitable. Then Netanyahu put a right wing criminal in charge of the 'Ministry of Justice,' and... BIG SURPRISE! ... another war.
"If I go the to write indictment number one, it would go to Israel's Justice Minister YARIV LEVIN. He is the man who drove this insane, corrupt, dishonest effort to basically take over the power of the Supreme Court. With Netanyahu's help, he fractured Israel. He fractured Israeli society. He fractured the Israeli ministry, the military. He fractured the Israeli air force...."
__ Tom Friedman

https://www.rawstory.com/tom-friedman-i ... A-TIAtHv6Y

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #48

You only brought up one side of the issue.

I was trying to balance the side of the issue you brought up when you said:

Part of the problem comes from some on the pro-Palestinian side when it comes to the perception and timing of their reactions. If a Jewish baby just had their head cut off by Hamas, and your immediate reaction is that, well Israel has also done wrong (which would also implicate the mother or even the baby since they are both Jews), then some people are going to be taken aback by that. Not only does the response fail to acknowledge the Jewish baby's murder, but it also fails to condemn it uneqivocally. The reaction doesn't seem to say that the baby's murder was wrong no matter what, but instead it seems to give a reason for it or even justify it or blame the victim, even. This is how some pro-Palestinian reactions have come across.

I've never portrayed Hamas as innocent, so there's nothing wrong with my balance.

[AgnosticBoy]

I've never portrayed Hamas as innocent, so there's nothing wrong with my balance.

The issue wasn't Hamas but rather it is portraying Israel as targeting civilians. That's how your comments can be taken if you only tell one side of the story, and you also did this earlier in the thread. You seemed bothered earlier when accusing me of twisting your words, but if you come out clear from the start, then that would help avoid that issue. Of course, people can ask you for further details on your position before accusing you of supporting Hamas or being against Israel. But, I think since this is a polarizing hot button issue, people will more likely jump to conclusions and label you as being on the opposing side.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #52

The issue wasn't Hamas but rather it is portraying Israel as targeting civilians. That's how your comments can be taken if you only tell one side of the story

My intent isn't to tell only one side of the story. My intent is to tell the side of the story which isn't being told by others.

One problem with saying that someone is "portraying Israel as targeting civilians" is that this is an assumption which can itself be taken as an attempt to intimidate and silence critics. Those jumping to that conclusion should take the trouble to get their facts straight.

[Donray]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #50]

Are you saying the Iseral used white phosphorus ????? Please provide proof. You seem to a Muslim terrorist supporter. You do remember that Muslim terrorists attacked the USA and killed how many civilians?

You do know that Muslim terrorists attacked Iseral killing how many civilians?

It seems that Muslims like to kill civilians and then complin when they get counter attacked.

Also, why many civilians were killed and injured by Muslims in Boston?

[AgnosticBoy]

... please tell me how the US could justify spending decades establishing illegal settlements in Canada, forcing Canadians out of their homes and demolishing them, setting up checkpoints on every Canadian road to restrict all movement of Canadians across their own country, taking complete control of Canada's supplies of food, water, electricity and fuel, and then responding to an aggressive act from Canada by reducing Canadian homes, schools and hospitals to rubble, cutting off the aforementioned resources from Canadian civilians, dousing inhabited areas in Canada with white phosphorus and preventing medical aid from getting to Canadians who survived?[/b]

You're clearly using an analogy of how Israel is said to be treating the Palestinians.

On the white phosphorus claim, do you have a source for that?

Did you also look at Israel's response to that claim?

Is it just an accusation or has it been independently verified by the UN, the US, any major media organizations or hopefully all of them?

The reason for bringing up these questions is because one source, the Palestinian side, reported that Israel bombed a hospital killing 500 people while Israel denied it. Now of course, it wouldn't be fair to just pick one side over the other. Independent investigations revealed that Israel did not bomb the al-Ahli Arab Baptist Hospital in Gaza.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #50]

Are you saying the Iseral used white phosphorus ????? Please provide proof. You seem to a Muslim terrorist supporter. You do remember that Muslim terrorists attacked the USA and killed how many civilians?

You do know that Muslim terrorists attacked Iseral killing how many civilians?

It seems that Muslims like to kill civilians and then complin when they get counter attacked.

Also, why many civilians were killed and injured by Muslims in Boston?

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/isr ... za-lebanon


I'm aware that terrorist attacks have been carried out, but I believe that we should be aware of everything which has been going on.

[Donray]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #56]

You are aware that these are MUSLIMS that attacked because of religion?? They are Muslim terrorists and seem to ignore that part. So do you know that Muslim bombers have continues to attacked Iseral? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... de_attacks . Please list all the suicide bombers that that attacked Palestine's?

So, do you think that Muslims attacked Iseral because of religion?

[AgnosticBoy]

I'm aware that terrorist attacks have been carried out, but I believe that we should be aware of everything which has been going on.

Being aware of as much info. as possible can be a good thing, but it's also important to be aware of what is proven or factual. That's where your claim about white phosphorous falls short. You've stated it as if it is fact, and offered it up as a response to a request for proof, but failed to show that it has been proven beyond just an accusation and unverified videos. There's a reason that news media often say that "we have not been able to independently verify this or that".

As a non-partisan/agnostic, I'd rather default to providing both sides of the story or specify not knowing if it's proven, when there's a lack of verifiable evidence. Here's an example of such perspective on the same issue:

Human Rights Watch said that videos recorded in Lebanon and Gaza on Tuesday and Wednesday showed airdropped white phosphorus artillery rounds — an assessment that was vehemently denied by Israeli officials. Human Rights Watch said that its analysis was corroborated through two interviews with witnesses on the ground who described a distinctive garlic-like smell that is a signature of white phosphorus.

A spokesperson for the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said:“The current accusation made against the IDF regarding the use of white phosphorus in Gaza is unequivocally false. The IDF has not deployed the use of such munitions.” A spokesperson for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not respond to a request for comment.

NBC News, which did not have reporters present when the strikes occurred in Gaza and Lebanon, has not been able to independently verify Human Rights Watch's claims. 

Source: NBC news

[AgnosticBoy]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #50]

Are you saying the Iseral used white phosphorus ????? Please provide proof. You seem to a Muslim terrorist supporter. You do remember that Muslim terrorists attacked the USA and killed how many civilians?

I can kinda sympathize with Athetotheist's perspective. They are trying to report inconvenient facts by reporting information that's coming from a side that the West usually doesn't support, i.e. the Palestinian side. As a non-partisan Agnostic, I'm willing to accept facts and truth, no matter which side it comes from. I'm not perfect in that, but that's what I strive for. Because of that standard of practice, (which Athetotheist states they are also trying to do), I've also been accused of being a Russian supporter, an Atheist supporter (which is bad depending on which side is making the accusation), a religious supporter (which is bad depending on which side is making the accusation), a Democrat supporter, a Republican supporter, a Palestinian supporter (haven't been accused yet but maybe it's coming), etc. The truth is that I don't care to be a supporter of any of these groups, but I'm still accused of supporting them because people tend to care more about which side you're on, or which/whose facts to accept, rather than on following facts and truth unconditionally - no matter where it leads, or whichever side it supports.

I responded to Athetotheist's about their claim on white phosphorous in my last post. I can see why you'd suspect that they favor the Palestinian side, but personally I would not make that call unless there's a pattern of accepting information from only one side, esp. when it is unverified information that is being passed off as truth.

[Donray]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #56]

So, why didn't you bring up all the suicide bombers that killed thousands of Iseral civilians if you want to point out both sides?

Why don't you want to refer to the people that attacked the USA as Muslim terrorists???

Seems to be you just want to defend Muslims for all their terrorist tactics. I don't remember anything about Iseral suicide bombers killing civilians.

Please answer: Who started this current war? Please use only current events. Did Palestine attack Iseral in October 2023?