Same sex marriage is not a church issue.

[Christianity in crisis?]

I believe same sex marriage is not a church issue when it comes to the law. Christians who try to ban same sex marriage are wrong, and should be consistent with the separation of church and state. BTW... I am an evangelical Christian against forms of legalized discrimination.

[Christianity in crisis?]

My religion is fighting for their beliefs, they are allowed to do whatever they want. Then if god is in all governments according to his will, then how is the conflict over homosexuality not a church issue?

That's my whole point of this thread. Your Mormon belief or religion is wrong for non-Mormons since they are non-Mormons. So why should a Mormon belief prevent non-Mormons to receive marriage benefits which others have? It is simply ungodly discrimination. No one is forcing you to be a non-Mormon with non-Mormon beliefs. No one is telling you to have sex outside of marriage as law. It's quite an ungodly view when you think about it... discrimination based on religion, race and even sexual orientation. Since we both profess to be Christians, please tell me where in the Bible reveals that same sex marriages are prohibitted. Or, quote a verse from Jesus condemning same sex marriages or homosexuality. Remember, there are Christian churches who gladly preform same sex marriages.

[McCulloch]

My religion is fighting for their beliefs,

This is the kind of statement that makes red flags go up with me. What do you mean that your religion is fighting for your beliefs? Are you struggling to make sense of your beliefs? Are you in an armed conflict trying to establish your beliefs on others? Are you working hard in the apologetics department, trying to convince as many as you can that your beliefs are valid? Do you think that there are people trying to suppress the expression of your beliefs? Which?

they are allowed to do whatever they want.

No one is allowed to do whatever they want. That is why we need laws.

Then if god is in all governments according to his will, then how is the conflict over homosexuality not a church issue?

The writers of Christian New Testament teaches that God rules over all earthly rulers and authorizes each power that exists. I believe that they were wrong.

[Christianity in crisis?]

My religion is fighting for their beliefs,

This is the kind of statement that makes red flags go up with me. What do you mean that your religion is fighting for your beliefs? Are you struggling to make sense of your beliefs? Are you in an armed conflict trying to establish your beliefs on others? Are you working hard in the apologetics department, trying to convince as many as you can that your beliefs are valid? Do you think that there are people trying to suppress the expression of your beliefs? Which?

they are allowed to do whatever they want.

No one is allowed to do whatever they want. That is why we need laws.

Then if god is in all governments according to his will, then how is the conflict over homosexuality not a church issue?

The writers of Christian New Testament teaches that God rules over all earthly rulers and authorizes each power that exists. I believe that they were wrong.

I remember having very good conversations with you. What's your view on same sex marriages... and equal maritial benefits for all? Sometimes, religious views are really un-Christlike in many ways. The church has a history of ungodly discrimation against minorities of all kinds.

[Kuan]

My religion is fighting for their beliefs, they are allowed to do whatever they want. Then if god is in all governments according to his will, then how is the conflict over homosexuality not a church issue?

That's my whole point of this thread. Your Mormon belief or religion is wrong for non-Mormons since they are non-Mormons. So why should a Mormon belief prevent non-Mormons to receive marriage benefits which others have? It is simply ungodly discrimination. No one is forcing you to be a non-Mormon with non-Mormon beliefs. No one is telling you to have sex outside of marriage as law. It's quite an ungodly view when you think about it... discrimination based on religion, race and even sexual orientation. Since we both profess to be Christians, please tell me where in the Bible reveals that same sex marriages are prohibitted. Or, quote a verse from Jesus condemning same sex marriages or homosexuality. Remember, there are Christian churches who gladly preform same sex marriages.

thats exactly what im trying to say...I have no right to impose my belief on a another person. Same vice versa.

[Kuan]

My religion is fighting for their beliefs,

This is the kind of statement that makes red flags go up with me. What do you mean that your religion is fighting for your beliefs? Are you struggling to make sense of your beliefs? Are you in an armed conflict trying to establish your beliefs on others? Are you working hard in the apologetics department, trying to convince as many as you can that your beliefs are valid? Do you think that there are people trying to suppress the expression of your beliefs? Which?

What I mean is that mormons are misunderstood. Would you agree? So we are fighting to be less understood.

they are allowed to do whatever they want.

No one is allowed to do whatever they want. That is why we need laws.[/quote]
What about when laws become detrimental to society. What about if a dictator gains power and starts concentration camps?

Then if god is in all governments according to his will, then how is the conflict over homosexuality not a church issue?

The writers of Christian New Testament teaches that God rules over all earthly rulers and authorizes each power that exists. I believe that they were wrong.

I agree in a way. But I dont know how to explain it so I wont expand on it.

[Kuan]

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the evengeance of eternal fire.

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

[Christianity in crisis?]

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the evengeance of eternal fire.

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

We can all quote Scripture out of context to make it sound whatever we want it to say. Heck, the Bible states that "there is no God". When understanding Scripture revelation, you need to understanding Scripture with the lenses of the gospel of God's Son. If you are basing your beliefs by our personal moral behavior, then Heaven will be empty, void of unrighteous sinners. You can believe that the Mormon Church is the other sheep in the gospel of John. But, there is no mention in the entire Bible about Joseph Smith, and the Mormon Church. So, be very careful of twisting Scripture for your own personal agenda. The Mormon Church used to twist scripture to validate racial discrimation in the Mormon Church. Still haven't found anything from Jesus regarding same sex marriges or homosexuality. We can discuss the Apostle Paul's writing all day long, and that will leave the Mormon Church to be false according to the Apostle Paul (Romans 3 and 4). If you want to quote Leviticus, then you better not be a bacon, ham, crab, shrimp, or lobster eater. There are many Levitcal laws in which the Mormon Church do not practice, so you guys are under the gun of the wrath of God if you are trusting in your obedience to the Levitical Law.

** On a practical note.... many Mormons born with a same sex orientation are commiting sucide based on incorrect Mormon doctrine regarding an ungodly hate of homosexuals. Heck, Marie Osmone is an example. Evangelicals have the same problem regarding sucide of Evangelical childrren born with a same sex orientation.

[Kuan]

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the evengeance of eternal fire.

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

We can all quote Scripture out of context to make it sound whatever we want it to say. Heck, the Bible states that "there is no God". When understanding Scripture revelation, you need to understanding Scripture with the lenses of the gospel of God's Son. If you are basing your beliefs by our personal moral behavior, then Heaven will be empty, void of unrighteous sinners. You can believe that the Mormon Church is the other sheep in the gospel of John. But, there is no mention in the entire Bible about Joseph Smith, and the Mormon Church. So, be very careful of twisting Scripture for your own personal agenda. The Mormon Church used to twist scripture to validate racial discrimation in the Mormon Church. Still haven't found anything from Jesus regarding same sex marriges or homosexuality. We can discuss the Apostle Paul's writing all day long, and that will leave the Mormon Church to be false according to the Apostle Paul (Romans 3 and 4). If you want to quote Leviticus, then you better not be a bacon, ham, crab, shrimp, or lobster eater. There are many Levitcal laws in which the Mormon Church do not practice, so you guys are under the gun of the wrath of God if you are trusting in your obedience to the Levitical Law.

You asked for something out of the bible or from Jesus. Just giving you some stuff.

[Christianity in crisis?]

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the evengeance of eternal fire.

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

We can all quote Scripture out of context to make it sound whatever we want it to say. Heck, the Bible states that "there is no God". When understanding Scripture revelation, you need to understanding Scripture with the lenses of the gospel of God's Son. If you are basing your beliefs by our personal moral behavior, then Heaven will be empty, void of unrighteous sinners. You can believe that the Mormon Church is the other sheep in the gospel of John. But, there is no mention in the entire Bible about Joseph Smith, and the Mormon Church. So, be very careful of twisting Scripture for your own personal agenda. The Mormon Church used to twist scripture to validate racial discrimation in the Mormon Church. Still haven't found anything from Jesus regarding same sex marriges or homosexuality. We can discuss the Apostle Paul's writing all day long, and that will leave the Mormon Church to be false according to the Apostle Paul (Romans 3 and 4). If you want to quote Leviticus, then you better not be a bacon, ham, crab, shrimp, or lobster eater. There are many Levitcal laws in which the Mormon Church do not practice, so you guys are under the gun of the wrath of God if you are trusting in your obedience to the Levitical Law.

You asked for something out of the bible or from Jesus. Just giving you some stuff.

Just rent the DVD from Nexflix or buy it: 8 Mormon Proposition... and help prevent sucides of those born with the same sexual orientation into familes who don't really understand the gospel of God.

[McCulloch]

What I mean is that Mormons are misunderstood. Would you agree? So we are fighting to be less understood.

I would agree that Mormons are often misunderstood. I wonder why anyone would fight to be less understood.

they are allowed to do whatever they want.

No one is allowed to do whatever they want. That is why we need laws.

What about when laws become detrimental to society. What about if a dictator gains power and starts concentration camps?

Is that likely? That is why we need the rule of law, civil society and the protection of constitutionally guaranteed rights.